Submitted by Soupjoe5 t3_z58i6a in Futurology
Comments
travelsonic t1_ixuwag1 wrote
That'd be absolutely awesome.
I do wonder though if this'd lead to them putting up a fight to prevent looting chests... which, actually, I wonder why isn't already a thing in SOME cases.
CuteCatBoy69 t1_ixwhbr9 wrote
That would make the game significantly better, flat out. Even if it weren't even real AI, if villages just progressed with time the game would feel more alive.
MasterBot98 t1_ixx3cd8 wrote
There were some mods on the topic, considering the devs already used other mod ideas weird that they didn't in this case *shrugs*.
Acererak09 t1_ixvdsc8 wrote
Piglins become hostile if you loot chests in a bastion remnant or mine gold near them.
travelsonic t1_ixy8oyk wrote
Or loot chests outside bastions - even if you plopped them down.
YourWiseOldFriend t1_ixy7trf wrote
>I do wonder though if this'd lead to them putting up a fight to prevent looting chests
As part of the learning program the AI learns how to fight. I can't see that becoming a problem at all.
/The 600 series had rubber skin. We spotted them easy.
Necessary-Celery t1_iy1syqs wrote
I'd want smart trading. When it's dirt huts they value seeds over diamonds. When it's a castle diamonds are worth far less than maps from far away.
Gagarin1961 t1_ixuz728 wrote
Oh god they’re starting to make nuclear missile silos!
Goukaruma t1_ixvar85 wrote
Sounds like a double edged sword. Imagine you build a nice big house in Minecraft. You are super proud of it. You come back later and the NPCs build much better ones around it. I think this can be very demotivating.
trowzerss t1_ixwlpqr wrote
Yeah, I think it would be better if it was still a village, but just had little additions that made logical sense or told a story, like oh, here's a beekeeper's hut with some hives outside. And look, the farmer built a cellar and stored some pumpkins in there. Little things to explore are just as fun as giant buildings.
psilorder t1_ixx12q7 wrote
Makes me think of how i did not enjoy building in Fallout 4, but i might enjoy coming back and seeing what the villagers have built with the items i brought back.
[deleted] t1_ixwgmxc wrote
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Icy_Archer_8018 t1_ixx0pap wrote
Do better is all I am saying
Aurum555 t1_ixuwm9t wrote
Feels like the video game episode of community when abed creates an empire of programmable babies
garry4321 t1_ixv6muk wrote
That would require a lot of computer resources to constantly keep the area rendered, and keep the AI computing and running in the background. There’s a reason villagers are simple and don’t do anything when you’re not around.
avalonian422 t1_ixvau0f wrote
Technology improves my boy
garry4321 t1_ixvbqyl wrote
And CPU’s have stagnated in power offer the last 10 years. Unless we get a breakthrough, there’s zero chance that the game is going to simulate AI villagers over an infinite map.
aliokatan t1_ixvfw8j wrote
gary let me tell you in the 8800GT days nobody could even dream of the word AI aside from terminator and here it is running on-device, mainstream
garry4321 t1_ixwfzk2 wrote
I’m saying near future. Also, there are infinite villages, so each village you find now has to be rendered and simulated constantly in addition to your actions. Picture each villager as now being a separate instance of Minecraft running on your PC.
Also, referencing historic gains in computing ignores the current factual reality that the exponential growth of CPU power has stalled for the last 10+ years and we are getting smaller and smaller returns on investment into CPU power.
aliokatan t1_ixwuuy1 wrote
AI efficiency and processing power has exploded in the last few years alone
Crivos t1_ixvgudp wrote
I saw something about graphene chips instead of silicone ones upping the charts.
LastPlaceStar t1_ixwbrpk wrote
The fact that the map is infinite has absolutely zero relevance.
garry4321 t1_ixwfgav wrote
Infinite map means infinite villages means each new village you come across needs to be-maintained in processing and simulated in real-time. So yea, infinite map DOES matter. Each new village now needs to be simulated in addition to just simulating gameplay.
LastPlaceStar t1_ixwxkr8 wrote
The game doesn't process everything at the same time. That's what chunk loading is.
RedditFuelsMyDepress t1_ixx2yxj wrote
I guess the confusion is that how would they change the village based on AI behavior if that AI isn't always simulated on the background. Obviously they don't need to render it graphically when you're not there, but you'd expect the village to change when you leave and come back. Could they just quickly run the simulation or "predict" what changes would have occurred when the chunk is loaded in? I'm genuinely asking, because I don't know how this stuff usually works.
GOOD_BONE_N_CALCIUM t1_ixyjtlk wrote
Hell they could have the information processed into the seed how things will proceed once observed / loaded / reloaded vs in world time.
garry4321 t1_ixzrlyb wrote
Thats my point. If you want AI robots always building while you are not there, the game has to render those chunks and simulate the AI building. Perhaps not graphically, but still has to process it exactly the same as if you were there. Otherwise the game just has to fake it and slap in a pre-built castle as if the AI built it, but then thats not AI at all, thats just slapping down pre-builds.
Emu1981 t1_ixwsz31 wrote
>And CPU’s have stagnated in power offer the last 10 years.
You are joking right? 2012 saw the release of Intel's 3rd gen Core processors and AMD's Piledriver CPUs. The 13900k is around 250% faster than the i7-3770k in the single core Geekbench 5 and nearly 400% faster than the FX-8350 - in the multicore benchmark that lead increases to around 700% and 800% respectively (bit unfair given that the 3770k is 4c/8t, the FX-8350 is 8c/8t and the 13900k is 24c/32t). That isn't even taking into account the iGPU/dGPU would be likely used for running the AI models over the CPU - you cannot deny that there has been a huge uplift in performance of GPUs from 2012 to now.
TL;DR: CPUs may have stagnated with only minor performance gains from each new generation from around 2011 to 2017 but from 2017 to now there has been constant noticeable improvements for each new generation due to AMD actually putting up some decent competition with their Zen architecture.
garry4321 t1_ixzsrfy wrote
Im not saying it hasnt improved at all, I am saying that moore's law is dead, and the multiplication of processing power each year is less and less. Processors used to double in processing power roughly every 2 years.
You even prove my point. The 3770k was released in early 2012. The I9 13900k which is the TOP OF THE FUCKING LINE CPU was JUST released.
Over 10 years and the top of the line CPU is only 250% faster than a chip released back in 2012? We were still flying the space shuttle in 2012. Obama still was a president with black hair in 2012.
2.5x better CPU in over 10 years. NOT GREAT
Cale111 t1_iy2ucr0 wrote
Moore’s law is about transistor count, not speed. It’s still in effect, just slightly less since 2010
[deleted] t1_ixvfuui wrote
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Idrialite t1_ixxnpmn wrote
Modern large neural networks usually run on GPUs, not CPUs
garry4321 t1_ixzr35f wrote
So you have to have quad 4090's to run minecraft now since you are rendering dozens to potentially hundreds/thousands of AI's building across an infinite map requiring the areas they are in to be rendered at all times.
Its not going to happen.
Idrialite t1_ixzzmig wrote
I'm 99% sure it'll be a trivial amount of computation within 100 years. We still have plenty of avenues to explore.
garry4321 t1_iy0thtr wrote
Perhaps, but these people are talking like we should do it now with zero understanding of how games work or things get done in a computer game. You don't just simulate AI villages with full pathfinding, and construction/deconstruction, crafting etc. abilities without huge PC requirements.
Remarkable-Hall-9478 t1_ixyk21k wrote
Why would it need to be rendered? And AI isn’t inherently heavyweight. All of this can be done very simply
garry4321 t1_ixzqgox wrote
Why would it need to be rendered?
If the goal is that when you come back to the town, they just plop a pre-fab castle in the middle of the town, thats not AI is it? They have to simulate the villagers building in Realtime at all times. With infinite villages available, that means that the game is now simulating dozens to hundreds of AI's building across the map thus having to keep those areas rendered in memory.
Remarkable-Hall-9478 t1_iy116hs wrote
Why does it have to be rendered in real time at all times? It literally only ever has to be rendered when it’s on-screen. The ”building” can be low-weight calculations done off-screen that then provide an emergent future state. There is absolutely no reason to be constantly running anything in the background except for the minimal amount of extrapolation based on game state. Even if you did have the AI models running in the background, unless you’re actively training them, drawing results out is simple and very low capacity
garry4321 t1_iy1vzff wrote
Ok so not AI. Just prebuilds (like we have now), but when you come to the village, one of the villagers has a block in his hands pretending he’s building it. You walk out of render distance for a second, come back , and there is a castle plopped down and the villager says “I did that”
russianpotato t1_ixxomy2 wrote
Why would it need to be rendered?
MauG59 t1_ixw1d08 wrote
until they start evolving collective consciousness and transcend to the spiritual dimension
Crivos t1_ixvgk4e wrote
I want to play that game right now!!! 🤩🤩🤩🤩
Jindujun t1_ixwu4gl wrote
There's a mod called Millenaire that i played many years ago that had the function of NPC villages expanding
JeffFromSchool t1_ixwceou wrote
I honestly think that we can do that right now, and possibly even for the last decade.
We just don't have any gaming systems with anywhere near that much parallel computational power to keep track of all of these things at once. AI isn't going to fix this.
People have trouble with frame drops now. Now imagine their computer/console trying render the dozens, if not hundreds or thousands of free-thinking NPCs who all still exist when you leave the area.
We'd be measuring in rendered frames per hour, not per second. We probably won't have this until quantum computers are a household commodity.
CuteCatBoy69 t1_ixwhsap wrote
Depends on how much they dumb it down and take shortcuts. I think they could cut a lot of corners instead of being real AI constantly. Games where NPCs harvest resources and stuff have existed forever, just using simple pathfinding and stuff. All they'd need to do to make it feel alive is have a lot of different structures and whatnot the AI could progress towards building, and have them choose which one they're gonna build at world generation. Possibly have AI calculate variations and additions. If it's out of sight of the player it doesn't need to be true AI or even real-time.
trowzerss t1_ixwlhvi wrote
I'd be happy enough if we could just use machine learning to generate more natural and complex landscapes etc. Like ones that make logical sense, especially for things like rivers and seguing between biomes.
4354574 t1_ixxsncu wrote
But would they create Lutherans?
myusernamehere1 t1_ixy39xk wrote
There was a mod that did exactly this. The millenaire mod, dont think its been updated in years tho
charronia t1_ixv214v wrote
First text generation, then image generation, now Minecraft...soon, we'll have successfully automated every creative endeavor in existence.
jonesmachina t1_ixw50w0 wrote
Built in universe simulation then they start creating religions and war-
Oh wait
Soupjoe5 OP t1_ixulnyj wrote
Article:
1
Online videos are a vast and untapped source of training data—and OpenAI says it has a new way to use it.
OpenAI has built the best Minecraft-playing bot yet by making it watch 70,000 hours of video of people playing the popular computer game. It showcases a powerful new technique that could be used to train machines to carry out a wide range of tasks by binging on sites like YouTube, a vast and untapped source of training data.
The Minecraft AI learned to perform complicated sequences of keyboard and mouse clicks to complete tasks in the game, such as chopping down trees and crafting tools. It’s the first bot that can craft so-called diamond tools, a task that typically takes good human players 20 minutes of high-speed clicking—or around 24,000 actions.
The result is a breakthrough for a technique known as imitation learning, in which neural networks are trained how to perform tasks by watching humans do them. Imitation learning can be used to train AI to control robot arms, drive cars or navigate webpages.
There is a vast amount of video online showing people doing different tasks. By tapping into this resource, the researchers hope to do for imitation learning what GPT-3 did for large language models. “In the last few years we’ve seen the rise of this GPT-3 paradigm where we see amazing capabilities come from big models trained on enormous swathes of the internet,” says Bowen Baker at OpenAI, one of the team behind the new Minecraft bot. “A large part of that is because we’re modeling what humans do when they go online.”
The problem with existing approaches to imitation learning is that video demonstrations need to be labeled at each step: doing this action makes this happen, doing that action makes that happen, and so on. Annotating by hand in this way is a lot of work, and so such datasets tend to be small. Baker and his colleagues wanted to find a way to turn the millions of videos that are available online into a new dataset.
The team’s approach, called Video Pre-Training (VPT), gets around the bottleneck in imitation learning by training another neural network to label videos automatically. They first hired crowdworkers to play Minecraft, and recorded their keyboard and mouse clicks alongside the video from their screens. This gave the researchers 2000 hours of annotated Minecraft play, which they used to train a model to match actions to onscreen outcome. Clicking a mouse button in a certain situation makes the character swing its axe, for example.
The next step was to use this model to generate action labels for 70,000 hours of unlabelled video taken from the internet and then train the Minecraft bot on this larger dataset.
Soupjoe5 OP t1_ixulokm wrote
2
“Video is a training resource with a lot of potential,” says Peter Stone, executive director of Sony AI America, who has previously worked on imitation learning.
Imitation learning is an alternative to reinforcement learning, in which a neural network learns to perform a task from scratch via trial and error. This is the technique behind many of the biggest AI breakthroughs in the last few years. It has been used to train models that can beat humans at games, control a fusion reactor, and discover a faster way to do fundamental math.
The problem is that reinforcement learning works best for tasks that have a clear goal, where random actions can lead to accidental success. Reinforcement learning algorithms reward those accidental successes to make them more likely to happen again.
But Minecraft is a game with no clear goal. Players are free to do what they like, wandering a computer-generated world, mining different materials and combining them to make different objects.
Minecraft’s open-endedness makes it a good environment for training AI. Baker was one of the researchers behind Hide & Seek, a project in which bots were let loose in a virtual playground where they used reinforcement learning to figure out how to cooperate and use tools to win simple games. But the bots soon outgrew their surroundings. “The agents kind of took over the universe, there was nothing else for them to do” says Baker. “We wanted to expand it and we thought Minecraft was a great domain to work in.”
They’re not alone. Minecraft is becoming an important testbed for new AI techniques. MineDojo, a Minecraft environment with dozens of predesigned challenges, won an award at this year’s NeurIPS, one of the biggest AI conferences.
Using VPT, OpenAI’s bot was able to carry out tasks that would have been impossible using reinforcement learning alone, such as crafting planks and turning them into a table, which involves around 970 consecutive actions. Even so, they found that the best results came from using imitation learning and reinforcement learning together. Taking a bot trained with VPT and fine-tuning it with reinforcement learning allowed it to carry out tasks involving more than 20,000 consecutive actions.
Soupjoe5 OP t1_ixulp6k wrote
3
The researchers claim that their approach could be used to train AI to carry out other tasks. To begin with, it could be used to for bots that use a keyboard and mouse to navigate websites, book flights or buy groceries online. But in theory it could be used to train robots to carry out physical, real-world tasks by copying first-person video of people doing those things. “It’s plausible,” says Stone.
Matthew Gudzial at the University of Alberta, Canada, who has used videos to teach AI the rules of games like Super Mario Bros, does not think it will happen any time soon, however. Actions in games like Minecraft and Super Mario Bros. are performed by pressing buttons. Actions in the physical world are far more complicated and harder for a machine to learn. "It unlocks a whole mess of new research problems," says Gudzial.
“This work is another testament to the power of scaling up models and training on massive datasets to get good performance,” says Natasha Jaques, who works on multi-agent reinforcement learning at Google and the University of California, Berkeley.
Large internet-sized data sets will certainly unlock new capabilities for AI, says Jaques. “We've seen that over and over again, and it's a great approach.” But OpenAI places a lot of faith in the power of large data sets alone, she says: “Personally, I'm a little more skeptical that data can solve any problem.”
Still, Baker and his colleagues think that collecting more than a million hours of Minecraft videos will make their AI even better. It’s probably the best Minecraft-playing bot yet, says Baker: “But with more data and bigger models I would expect it to feel like you're watching a human playing the game, as opposed to a baby AI trying to mimic a human.”
bitey87 t1_ixvgksl wrote
A couple more years and I won't be able to pass a captcha test.
UniversalMomentum t1_ixum4zg wrote
Let's play AI? Sorry but you know it's just kind of sounds ridiculous as a headline.
Aggravating_Impact97 t1_ixwqxwp wrote
For me I think if AI could teach humans new ways of doing things and cater to people unique learning styles. That would be amazing. Imagine learning how to play an instrument the same way you could learn how to drive a car. If it just broke it down for you and told you exactly what you needed to know in that moment. Experts are expensive and normally focus on other would-be experts. Ai has all the time in the world and could teach everyone at once while going at their speed. That would be a better world that shouldn't be feared.
ImMrtaL t1_ixxfwqp wrote
I think by the time we get here we're gonna reach a point where ai will "learn" things on its own and make scientific advances without any need for our input. Not too much use in us learning things other than just out of interest at that point
Aggravating_Impact97 t1_iy2o6rd wrote
I disagree. But it comes down to just a difference of opinion and not out of specialized knowledge in all things AI. I am not an expert so take everything I said with a grain of salt. I think it would be wonderful to have another option to help people learn and that can have all sort of positive effects. Learning how to play an instrument is more than just a hobby. It can affect every part of a persons life. It is also extremely hard and has a high barrier for entry for a reason. To be able to aide that process in some way would be quite the breakthrough.
ImMrtaL t1_iy3hdtd wrote
I completely agree with what you're saying and I'm also very excited for the opportunities to learn new or existing skills faster, and of course it will affect every aspect of someone's life. However I really think that if such a complex system can be made then AI should have the ability to improve itself and exponentially increase in complexity and capability. There's not much way for our meat computers to keep up with that. And so I say that these activities will be out of pure interest instead of utility. Against self-evolving ai we don't really stand a chance
I really think with AI, the future will just be every person essentially living as an athlete or artist and basically doing the equivalent of maxing out their skills in an RPG video game, while AI is figuring out how to feed and house us in the background. I mean, I hope so..
MpVpRb t1_ixvie4s wrote
I'm happy to see the paywalled article posted here.
Seems like an interesting approach
RogueRain17 t1_ixwrdck wrote
cant wait til they make an AI that watches videos of people making AIs
Tartarus216 t1_iy0aevn wrote
That’s how we teach them to replicate
[deleted] t1_ixumqyu wrote
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FuturologyBot t1_ixupqhu wrote
The following submission statement was provided by /u/Soupjoe5:
Article:
1
Online videos are a vast and untapped source of training data—and OpenAI says it has a new way to use it.
OpenAI has built the best Minecraft-playing bot yet by making it watch 70,000 hours of video of people playing the popular computer game. It showcases a powerful new technique that could be used to train machines to carry out a wide range of tasks by binging on sites like YouTube, a vast and untapped source of training data.
The Minecraft AI learned to perform complicated sequences of keyboard and mouse clicks to complete tasks in the game, such as chopping down trees and crafting tools. It’s the first bot that can craft so-called diamond tools, a task that typically takes good human players 20 minutes of high-speed clicking—or around 24,000 actions.
The result is a breakthrough for a technique known as imitation learning, in which neural networks are trained how to perform tasks by watching humans do them. Imitation learning can be used to train AI to control robot arms, drive cars or navigate webpages.
There is a vast amount of video online showing people doing different tasks. By tapping into this resource, the researchers hope to do for imitation learning what GPT-3 did for large language models. “In the last few years we’ve seen the rise of this GPT-3 paradigm where we see amazing capabilities come from big models trained on enormous swathes of the internet,” says Bowen Baker at OpenAI, one of the team behind the new Minecraft bot. “A large part of that is because we’re modeling what humans do when they go online.”
The problem with existing approaches to imitation learning is that video demonstrations need to be labeled at each step: doing this action makes this happen, doing that action makes that happen, and so on. Annotating by hand in this way is a lot of work, and so such datasets tend to be small. Baker and his colleagues wanted to find a way to turn the millions of videos that are available online into a new dataset.
The team’s approach, called Video Pre-Training (VPT), gets around the bottleneck in imitation learning by training another neural network to label videos automatically. They first hired crowdworkers to play Minecraft, and recorded their keyboard and mouse clicks alongside the video from their screens. This gave the researchers 2000 hours of annotated Minecraft play, which they used to train a model to match actions to onscreen outcome. Clicking a mouse button in a certain situation makes the character swing its axe, for example.
The next step was to use this model to generate action labels for 70,000 hours of unlabelled video taken from the internet and then train the Minecraft bot on this larger dataset.
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/z58i6a/a_bot_that_watched_70000_hours_of_minecraft_could/ixulnyj/
KillerNinja86678 t1_ixvbv6x wrote
BRUH NO! whats to stop it from watching videos about ai and how they can kill and take over? Do not let ai on youtube.
norby2 t1_iy2l6th wrote
I don’t want it to watch the Republican convention.
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Privateaccount84 t1_ixvkc59 wrote
It even learned that if you find lava, you must accidentally fall into it and lose all your items.
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anothernaturalone t1_ixwz3mf wrote
this is just what a baby does. takes information from the outside world and learns to do things by imitating the people who did them elsewhere. we've reinvented babies.
tritonus_ t1_ixx30uw wrote
How soon does the AI fall into YouTube far right pipeline? First, it’s edgy streamers, next thing it’s full on incel rhetoric.
[deleted] t1_ixxl36l wrote
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runthepoint1 t1_ixy02x2 wrote
Damn imitation learning from machines, amazing. And a little terrifying.
Purpoisely_Anoying_U t1_ixvbz04 wrote
Anyone read this as "A boy..."? And get really confused
an_oddbody t1_ixvn9ny wrote
This is not AI this is Maching learning. Please don't confuse the two. One uses brute force calculations and training, the other uses logical reasoning and understanding. They are very different.
Edit: Gotta love getting downvoted for presenting facts 😕
B0risTheManskinner t1_ixvur7l wrote
Is machine leaning not a type of AI?
an_oddbody t1_ixwfe3u wrote
Nope, totally separate. Even Generative Adversarial Networks, a more advanced and powerful form of machine learning, would be incomparable to true AI.
__ingeniare__ t1_ixwthah wrote
Machine learning is a subfield of AI, which you could've easily checked if you bothered to google it before confidently asserting it isn't.
B0risTheManskinner t1_ixxmshg wrote
I think you're confusing AI with AGI
hara8bu t1_ixwvhqa wrote
Can you define “understanding”?
an_oddbody t1_ixxijnr wrote
This is probably not what you were hoping to hear, but there is currently a lot of debate about what it would mean for an AI to have true "understanding" as we know it. I have used it here to loosely mean having having a functional recognition of the laws of the world that the AI is exposed to. This means that by observing the world around it, it could apply these laws and be able to make reasonable predictions about the state of that world, make connections about the relationships of the states of various objects, and generally be able to asses how systems based on those laws operate.
Some people will say "Oh, but there's the Turing Test, right?" And yes, that's true. But the turing test only checks the degree of confidence people have that they are interacting with an understanding being. The program may have a 20-minute conversation about a variety of topics without truly understanding any of the topics. Just like how I can have a convincing 20-minute conversation with my in-laws about football, despite having no idea what any of the rules of football are. The program and I simply know what words to put together to seem natural.
Quanta magazine has some great articles that touch on the complexity of this issue. If you have some time, I reccomend checking them out.
What Does It Mean for AI to Understand?
Machines Beat Humans on a Reading Test. But Do They Understand?
And there are others, but these should be quite approachable.
hara8bu t1_ixy6zt7 wrote
Follow-up questions: how do you define narrow AI? (ANI) and is ANI a form of AI?
It sounds like you believe AI = Artificial General Intelligence (AGI) ONLY. And because we are nowhere near AGI now, and you are talking about “what it would mean for an AI to have …” you are starting from different assumptions than the rest of the world and probably won’t have an easy time discussing AI with anyone.
So, if we replace the “AI” in your comments with “AGI”, then yes, I agree with your below definition of “understanding”. Thank you.
> I have used it here to loosely mean having having a functional recognition of the laws of the world that the AI is exposed to. This means that by observing the world around it, it could apply these laws and be able to make reasonable predictions about the state of that world, make connections about the relationships of the states of various objects, and generally be able to asses how systems based on those laws operate.
Zuli_Muli t1_ixxla7k wrote
I up voted you. This is a pet peeve of mine as well.
an_oddbody t1_ixxot8o wrote
Thanks, fellow concerned citizen.
T732 t1_ixvqzqd wrote
What happens when you put the together?
[deleted] t1_ixvtvmz wrote
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Redditing-Dutchman t1_ixusxxn wrote
Would be amazing if the villagers in Minecraft would one day possess this power. You visit a village and it's just a few dirt huts, then come back much later and suddenly there is a giant castle being build.