Comments
Heap_Good_Firewater t1_j3wsnz9 wrote
What about cost?
I have heard that CSP is being abandoned because of the massive drop in cost of solar panels.
The energy storage angle is interesting, however.
Surur t1_j3x9dmx wrote
I wonder how the efficiency compares with using heating the transfer fluid with electricity from PV.
Zoloir t1_j3xk1ck wrote
if we assume that both water tanks lose heat at the same rate, so our only objective is to turn light into heat, then because solar panels are pretty far from 100% efficient at turning light into electricity, then it is more likely that absorbing all the light on the right surface into heat is probably closer to 100% than absorbing some of it into electricity, and then converting that electricity into heat
Surur t1_j3xmhiy wrote
The idea is to use excess solar energy heat and store the transfer fluid to generate electricity at night.
Apparently, trough CSP is about 20-40% efficient, and solar cells are about 20% efficient, and turning electricity to heat is 100% efficient, so if the solar cells are 1/2 the price of the troughs, they would be cheaper than the troughs in generating heated fluid for storage.
Galactus54 t1_j3zgl5h wrote
But since the troughs probably have a much longer usable life their lifetime efficiency surpasses PV.
-The_Blazer- t1_j3xuayq wrote
It's more expensive than solar PV, but those only look so good because all the infrastructure and storage to actually use them as a primary energy source is not included in the price.
It's the same with offshore wind, nuclear and gas (which if you hear Reddit should have gone extinct 5 years ago): all these sources look worse than solar PV, until you include the cost of having zero power output for half the day or more. I read a study some time ago showing that if you add just 4-6 hours of storage to solar PV the LCOE shoots up to 100$ per megawatt/h. And to endure the winter you'd need more like 16 hours.
Heap_Good_Firewater t1_j3xvwox wrote
Yeah, solar only really makes sense in really sunny areas.
Germany is learning that the hard way.
The US hasn’t learned it yet. I have seen solar arrays in western Oregon, central Michigan, and Connecticut.
What we really need are more efficient long-distance transmission lines and s smarter grid.
We could then put large solar arrays in the southwest and huge wind farms in the Great Plains and distribute the power where it’s needed.
netz_pirat t1_j3y1zkk wrote
German here... No we're not? We're installing as many panels as we can.
Rooftop solar comes in at 6ct/kwh here, which is substantially cheaper than coal, gas or nuclear power.
For what it's worth, it's been cheaper to have solar panels create enery for green hydrogen than to buy natural gas for most of the year.
Heap_Good_Firewater t1_j4199st wrote
Heap_Good_Firewater t1_j3y2mmj wrote
German consumption of lignite (dirty coal) has increased sharply since nuclear was largely abandoned.
The price you quoted ignores the cost of backstopping solar at night or on cloudy days.
netz_pirat t1_j41a6a5 wrote
The fuck you are talking about? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany#/media/File%3AEnergy_mix_in_Germany.svg
Coal use has gone down a lot over the years, if anything we burned more coal because we needed to export more energy to France as they had lots of reactor maintenance
Heap_Good_Firewater t1_j429lhx wrote
The West’s Nuclear Mistake (The Atlantic)
Germany in 2020 was ninth in the world in coal burning. The UK burned barely any coal. The difference was the idiotic decision by Germany to drop nuclear power.
Despite Germany’s PR, their pre-Ukraine emissions reductions have far more to do with demographic decline than alternative energy. German emissions reductions have actually slowed since they started their solar buildout.
Also, Germany counts electricity generation from lignite as “renewable” as long as it is backstopping solar. This vastly overstates their green capacity, as lots of energy is used in the evening.
netz_pirat t1_j42kfzb wrote
Demographic decline? Population has been growing.
And no, we don't count coal energy as renewable.
How can one look at YOY 50% renewable electric energy and conclude that this must mean we burn more coal? Wind and solar produce more electricity every year than nuclear ever did
Sol3dweller t1_j42l276 wrote
Coverage of the Energiewende is almost uniformly negative in the United States. The Atlantic article is just another instance of that PR, as you call it. It's neither particularly well researched (Merkel didn't decide the nuclear phase-out that was put into law already a decade earlier), nor well reasoned (they claim that the decline of nuclear power has not been covered by renewables, based on the observation that coal still is around?). Germany is produced way less electricity from coal in 2021 when that article was published than in 2001 when their nuclear power peaked, and the power output from wind and solar increased more (+106 TWh) than by what nulcear declined (-102 TWh). Power from coal declined even more (-123 TWh).
> The difference was the idiotic decision by Germany to drop nuclear power.
No, the difference is that the UK replaced their coal burning by gas. Similar to the US, however it is further advanced in replacing that gas burning with wind power than the US. Nuclear power output in the UK is also declining. It peaked in 1998 at nearly 100 TWh. In 2021, they produced less than 47 TWh and last year EDF closed Hunterston B (before the Russian invasion) and Hinkley Point B (in August).
>Despite Germany’s PR, their pre-Ukraine emissions reductions have far more to do with demographic decline than alternative energy.
Source? German population isn't really declining, so that seems to be a pretty bad analysis.
>Also, Germany counts electricity generation from lignite as “renewable” as long as it is backstopping solar.
No, it doesn't?
>https://youtu.be/AYu9rliT3F4
That video doesn't seem to care much about facts. France more populous than Germany? Germany gets more than a third of its power from wind+solar alone, not "just 10%". The government states estimated overall costs of 500 billion for the energy transition until 2050. The highest estimate I know of talks about 500 billion until 2025. Where did he pull the 2 trillion from?
Lignite burning in Germany has gone up this year, that's true, it increased by about 5%, but it's not like it would be a new development that they lean heavily on coal burning. They generated 140 TWh from lignite in 2002 when they were close to their nuclear power output compared to 105 TWh in 2022.
It's total nonsense, that only solar power is on the grid, when the sun shines, there just is too little solar power installed yet for that in Germany.
Here is the power production in June 2022. Notice that there isn't just solar+wind on the grid at any point. The claim that the emissions from that coal burning isn't accounted for in the carbon emission figures seems just total fabrication.
RedditorsArGrb t1_j40jhl9 wrote
This article explicitly attributes Germany burning more coal in 2022 than 2021 to the ongoing natural gas squeeze and French nuclear failures. Germany has been winding down nuclear production for like a decade and coal has trended net negative over that time. Any dumbass can look this up, kind of weird of you to lie about it.
Heap_Good_Firewater t1_j40scgs wrote
Yes, that wasn’t the best article to use to illustrate my point. Apologies (I was in a hurry and grabbed the wrong link). The 2021-2022 change was from a much higher baseline than it would have been if Germany hadn’t abandoned nuclear power. This article actually addresses my point:
The West’s Nuclear Mistake (The Atlantic)
Germany in 2020 was ninth in the world in coal burning. The UK burned barely any coal. The difference was the disastrous decision by Germany to drop nuclear power.
But nuclear power is dangerous!
The proven death toll from Fukishima is in the single digits. Three Mile Island had zero. Chernobyl killed 60 people almost immediately and maybe several hundred overall, but let's assume 20,000 lives shortened, to accept the absolute worst-case estimates.
All of those deaths together represent fewer deaths than two years of Chinese coal mining. If you factor in the health impacts of coal soot, coal is hundreds of thousands of times more deadly. Full replacement of coal with nuclear might have saved 7 million lives.
Newer plants can be designed so meltdowns are impossible. High-level nuclear waste can be reprocessed. Being afraid of a modern nuclear power plant is like refusing to fly on a 787 because the Hindenburg crashed.
Yes, there are some outdated plants (or plants in earthquake zones), that probably should be shut down, but we should be building new plants as fast as possible.
France has proven that nuclear power can be safe, economical, and generate minimal high-level waste, but even their technology is out of date.
​
Despite Germany’s PR, their pre-Ukraine emissions reductions have far more to do with demographic decline than alternative energy. German emissions reductions have actually slowed since they started their solar buildout.
Also, Germany counts electricity generation from lignite as “renewable” as long as it is backstopping solar. This vastly overstates their green capacity, as lots of energy is used in the evening.
Human_Anybody7743 t1_j3wncrp wrote
I wish people would quote firm capacity or time over 50% in these. Number of hours you could use two of them for all your needs is much more interesting than mean.
FuturologyBot t1_j3wll70 wrote
The following submission statement was provided by /u/Cosmic_Ray_Bit_Flip:
SS:
Solar energy record: Mongolian CSP generated round the clock
Posted on January 10, 2023
Solar record-breaking Mongolian CSP generated 24-hours for 12 days
In Mongolia at a latitude of 41.5 degrees, the Wulate CSP project generated day and night solar continuously for 12 days.
Solar energy record – 12 days, 24 hours a day
In a solar energy record for round-the-clock power generation, Mongolia’s Wulate 100MW trough CSP project ran continuously for 12 days, generating pure solar energy without batteries; due to the thermal energy storage in CSP. (How Concentrated Solar Power (CSP) works). In a CSP plant, mirrors create heat from sunlight and the heat is stored thermally and runs a thermal power plant.
Wulate began operation on January 8, 2022. The 100 MW plant generated 300,000 MWh of solar energy in its first year of operation. Records obtained by China’s Solar Thermal Alliance show that during that time; from June 4th to June 15th, 2022, and even under overcast skies for six of those days, continuous power generation round the clock was achieved for all 12 days. The total power generation of over 22,000 MWh during that period was at a maximum power generation of 106 MW.
The project, one of China’s trough CSP projects in its pilot program, includes thermal energy storage so it can generate solar energy through the night. All of the Chinese CSP projects, both the pilot projects and the 30 new ones underway as of 2023, include thermal storage. (How CSP thermal energy storage works)
China needs night solar
China has an unusual energy requirement that needs more 24-hour power than western nations. This is due to a higher percentage of load from overnight factory operations, according to a study in Nature of China’s cost to decarbonize covered recently here at SolarPACES. Supplying this load from solar energy helps China decarbonize its energy use at low cost. This is why China has emphasized building CSP in concert with PV and wind. CSP enables thermally stored solar energy.
Located in inner Mongolia at a high latitude of 41.5 degrees, Wulate is the first CSP project to achieve full operation at this latitude in China, the report states. The operating efficiency of the locally produced trough solar collector exceeded expectations for such a high latitude.
This inner Mongolian CSP project was built to supply the most hours daily of thermal storage of all the pilot CSP projects in China. To supply more thermal energy storage in CSP, the developer builds a larger solar field in relation to the steam turbine and power block capacity, so there is a greater surplus of solar energy available to store. Like in all trough CSP, the heat is gathered and transmitted in a thermal heat transfer fluid that runs through small diameter piping throughout the solar field, heated by concentrated sunlight reflected off the parabolic solar trough collectors.
China’s big business branching out into CSP
Like many of the Chinese projects, the Wulate project is built by large state energy corporations. Wulate was designed, constructed, commissioned, operated, and maintained by a division of the China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSIC) – its New Energy Co. CSIC comprises 96 engineering enterprises located in northern China and employs over 300,000 people. Many big firms like CSIC in China have engineering expertise in thermal power block components, which are similar to coal power stations. Instead of burning fossil fuel, a trough CSP plant generates heat at between 400 – 500°C, the temperature used to run a thermal power station.
CSIC says that the operating efficiency of the domestic trough collector exceeded its expectations. CSIC also claims the world record for the shortest construction and commissioning period, however, this data was not provided by the reporter at China’s Solar Thermal Alliance. The firm notes that it also managed a world record short time for injecting the heat transfer fluid, with 570 tons inserted in just one day.
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Categories CSP News & Analysis
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/1097a1n/solar_energy_record_mongolian_csp_generated_round/j3wjeut/
Phssthp0kThePak t1_j3xkag7 wrote
CSP station outside Las Vegas required natural gas heating to keep the heat exchanger hot through the night.
[deleted] t1_j3ylkbq wrote
[removed]
Zemirolha t1_j40plwr wrote
State corporations. They exist. They do not need "profit for investors". With internet and transparency, it is easier reaching social control over them, something impossible under nontransparent private corporations .
Cosmic_Ray_Bit_Flip OP t1_j3wjeut wrote
SS:
Solar energy record: Mongolian CSP generated round the clock
Posted on January 10, 2023
Solar record-breaking Mongolian CSP generated 24-hours for 12 days
In Mongolia at a latitude of 41.5 degrees, the Wulate CSP project generated day and night solar continuously for 12 days.
Solar energy record – 12 days, 24 hours a day
In a solar energy record for round-the-clock power generation, Mongolia’s Wulate 100MW trough CSP project ran continuously for 12 days, generating pure solar energy without batteries; due to the thermal energy storage in CSP. (How Concentrated Solar Power (CSP) works). In a CSP plant, mirrors create heat from sunlight and the heat is stored thermally and runs a thermal power plant.
Wulate began operation on January 8, 2022. The 100 MW plant generated 300,000 MWh of solar energy in its first year of operation. Records obtained by China’s Solar Thermal Alliance show that during that time; from June 4th to June 15th, 2022, and even under overcast skies for six of those days, continuous power generation round the clock was achieved for all 12 days. The total power generation of over 22,000 MWh during that period was at a maximum power generation of 106 MW.
The project, one of China’s trough CSP projects in its pilot program, includes thermal energy storage so it can generate solar energy through the night. All of the Chinese CSP projects, both the pilot projects and the 30 new ones underway as of 2023, include thermal storage. (How CSP thermal energy storage works)
China needs night solar
China has an unusual energy requirement that needs more 24-hour power than western nations. This is due to a higher percentage of load from overnight factory operations, according to a study in Nature of China’s cost to decarbonize covered recently here at SolarPACES. Supplying this load from solar energy helps China decarbonize its energy use at low cost. This is why China has emphasized building CSP in concert with PV and wind. CSP enables thermally stored solar energy.
Located in inner Mongolia at a high latitude of 41.5 degrees, Wulate is the first CSP project to achieve full operation at this latitude in China, the report states. The operating efficiency of the locally produced trough solar collector exceeded expectations for such a high latitude.
This inner Mongolian CSP project was built to supply the most hours daily of thermal storage of all the pilot CSP projects in China. To supply more thermal energy storage in CSP, the developer builds a larger solar field in relation to the steam turbine and power block capacity, so there is a greater surplus of solar energy available to store. Like in all trough CSP, the heat is gathered and transmitted in a thermal heat transfer fluid that runs through small diameter piping throughout the solar field, heated by concentrated sunlight reflected off the parabolic solar trough collectors.
China’s big business branching out into CSP
Like many of the Chinese projects, the Wulate project is built by large state energy corporations. Wulate was designed, constructed, commissioned, operated, and maintained by a division of the China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSIC) – its New Energy Co. CSIC comprises 96 engineering enterprises located in northern China and employs over 300,000 people. Many big firms like CSIC in China have engineering expertise in thermal power block components, which are similar to coal power stations. Instead of burning fossil fuel, a trough CSP plant generates heat at between 400 – 500°C, the temperature used to run a thermal power station.
CSIC says that the operating efficiency of the domestic trough collector exceeded its expectations. CSIC also claims the world record for the shortest construction and commissioning period, however, this data was not provided by the reporter at China’s Solar Thermal Alliance. The firm notes that it also managed a world record short time for injecting the heat transfer fluid, with 570 tons inserted in just one day.
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Categories CSP News & Analysis