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BaalHammonBePraised t1_j5flisd wrote

Why do you guys from the USA involve race in so many things? Its an unhealthy obsession

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Norvig-Generis t1_j5fw6os wrote

Because they literally chose to be a race centered society instead of a post racial, they are consciously and legally moving towards segregation and all that, its wild.

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st4n13l t1_j5fwg3g wrote

>they are consciously and legally moving towards segregation and all that, its wild.

That would be wild if it were actually true

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Norvig-Generis t1_j5fzcsb wrote

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/apr/18/more-universities-holding-segregated-graduation-ev/

There ya go, next time just ask nicely.

Btw I'm just highlighting how America is on a path towards being more centered around race and even separating people based on it, this is not a discussion on identity politics or left/right, plz

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st4n13l t1_j5g1nlt wrote

The vast majority of those they referred to have additional, optional graduation events for smaller communities in addition to the main ceremony. This is not ethnic segregation like what that the US enforced for the first 200 years of our existence.

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Bard_Bromance_Club t1_j5j9ysu wrote

so it's not forced segregation but optional segregation. How is that distinction any better in response to his comment?

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st4n13l t1_j5jgkfx wrote

The same way forcing religion is bad but allowing people to practice their own faiths is not bad

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Bard_Bromance_Club t1_j5jwzii wrote

That is the biggest misnomer for lack of a better word. To expand on your analogy, I can talk about the islamic faith and consider converting to it from a christian background. I can talk about the flaws in christanity compared to judaism compared to islam and so on. Everyone has the free will to engage in these conversations or beliefs. In segregation you are preventing anyone from engaging who doesn't fit a racial profile.

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I have gone into a mosque to talk with an Imam about Islam and was welcomed and encouraged. Would that be the same in this scenario of segregation?

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tabrisangel t1_j5g60cp wrote

Oh damn you got him! (By making an absurd strawman argument

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st4n13l t1_j5g9w8i wrote

They said the US was consciously and legally headed toward segregation. The "evidence" they presented doesn't support that when considered in the context of what those universities are actually doing. And even if it did, it doesn't support anything about moving legally towards segregation.

Where's the strawman?

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Rraen_ t1_j5kinw8 wrote

I think they were trying to say that we are choosing to segregate ourselves more publicly, not that there is a return to government mandated segregation. Which is somewhat true, but not necessarily dysfunctional or unhealthy. There's a really interesting study by Robert Putnam from Harvard. Here's part of the abstract relevant to this topic:

In the long run immigration and diversity are likely to have important cultural, economic, fiscal, and developmental benefits. In the short run, however, immigration and ethnic diversity tend to reduce social solidarity and social capital.

I'm not going to use silly words like good and bad, some of us do choose to segregate ourselves, but we appear to do it more typically because of the desire for community and safety, as opposed to hate for the other.

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MarioKartWiii t1_j5gvauc wrote

Some people think additional optional events is the same as forcing people to segregate and thereā€™s no educating them. Our only hope is that they leave or die

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vonRoeff t1_j5ib1cp wrote

I'm curious, would you accept a "whites only" additional optional event?

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gifs_not_jifs t1_j5jjdrv wrote

We recognize the realities of race while Europeans continue to deny the Afro-European experience as valid.

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Norvig-Generis t1_j5ko7sd wrote

Exactly, you want to keep having your society differentiating clearly between Americans depending only on their skin color, instead of creating the basis for a future where our children dont care about color.

The great example for me is how europeans learned to not care about blonde northern hair vs dark southern hair, straight western nose vs eastern crooked nose, red-heads. etc.

Not to say that, typically, the more northern and western you are, the higher the chances of you being well off in life. But the fact the rules don't perpetuate that notion ad infinitum made it a lot easier for people to stop looking at individuals as members of a specific sub group, and just see them as regular Europeans.

I believe the African american experience will never be accepted as a normal American experience for as long as you make sure to differentiate it as much as possible. And the more specific rules you make for those people, the harder it is for everyone to have the same experience and understand each other.

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[deleted] t1_j5g7aqi wrote

We are just curious about how everything works. We measure everything, even by flying right into the hurricanes. We have an innate appetite to understand everything from foundational levels and ponder how can we do it better. It may look like there is lot of chaos and in some case they are; but it is this creative chaos that makes US awesome!

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Flatscreens t1_j5iesxm wrote

Being "post racial" ignores the inequalities and repercussions from centuries of legally enforced racial discrimination.

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gza_liquidswords t1_j5jl9an wrote

>Being "post racial" ignores the inequalities and repercussions from centuries of legally enforced racial discrimination.

Also ignores all of the active and ongoing discrimination over last 60 years.

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Norvig-Generis t1_j5kpykz wrote

No, instead of focusing on all races being equally rich, it's focused on all poors (independent of skin color) stop being poor. Socio economic level of parents defines your life way more than skin color.

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unoriginal_design t1_j5sinf8 wrote

You realize how confounded that issue is, particularly in the United States though? So the economic level of your parents is highly dependent on intergenerational wealth. We didnā€™t stop enslaving black people until literally what 5 or 6 generations ago? And even when we did, we have implemented so many policies in this country over the past century alone that have severely hampered black and brown communities ability to rise up to the socioeconomic levels of white Americans. You canā€™t amass intergenerational wealth if just a few generations ago your family were literal slaves and then second class citizens.

Tulsa massacre is a perfect example, but just one of so many modern atrocities. When black people started to actually rise up economically their entire ā€œblack Wall Street,ā€ a thriving economic center of Tulsa was razed to the ground and they were murdered because white people were jealous of their success.

My mother was born one year after interracial marriage was legalized. To me that really hits home as exactly 1 generation ago I wouldnā€™t be able to marry my fiancĆ©e in this country. These racist laws and policies are not some distant past, theyā€™re still on going.

Today you basically canā€™t be black in this country without fearing the police can end your life for literally any reason whatsoever. Your parents being murdered or incarcerated at much higher rates is not great for their socioeconomic status :|. Iā€™m literally afraid daily for the life of my fiancĆ©e (and mine at times, cause Iā€™m Latino so Iā€™m fair game tooā€¦)

Seriously, we focus on this shit because itā€™s fucking real and affects peoples lives. Socioeconomic class and race are confounding variables :| like not even just in the US, Indiaā€™s whole fucking socioeconomic caste system has colorism ingrained, just to name one example.

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5irSkellington t1_j5j0t18 wrote

Why dont you just get the fuck over it? Overy people on earth has faced discrimination and slavery at some point in history

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DeltaVZerda t1_j5ft8oz wrote

Because unlike most countries, the USA is hyper-aware of it's problems with race and is currently undergoing a major societal shift to better them. We've come a long way, but we still have some distance to go. Ignoring it would be way more unhealthy.

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hurdurnotavailable t1_j5fwb1f wrote

There is no problem unless there exists evidence that the differences in outcome are coming from discrimination. This evidence has never been provided... instead it is simply assumed to be true, almost like an axiom (which isn't justified tho). That's why the US' obsession with race is so irrational, while seeming reasonable on the surface.

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kdavis37 t1_j5gkn6r wrote

There's never been evidence provided that there's racial discrimination in the workplace, especially related to hiring? Am I understanding your claim correctly?

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hurdurnotavailable t1_j5gl8qg wrote

There's has never been evidence provided that would justify the claim that the differences in outcome are solely or mostly due to discrimination. There are many other variables that are better at explaining those differences.....

Read "Discrimination and Disparities" from Thomas Sowell to better understand this issue.

Edit: Somehow my comment got messed up. Reddit editor really doesn't like copy&paste.

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ZurakZigil t1_j5hqmf5 wrote

...are you for real? Like you have to be joking

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kdavis37 t1_j5gmyxb wrote

You should read anything from an actual sociologist instead of a talk show host's assistant.

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YouAreInsufferable t1_j5irsuw wrote

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2821669/

Just one piece of the paper citing other papers on discrimination:

>These include studies that have examined the relationship between discrimination and schizophrenia among ethnic minorities in the Netherlands (Veling et al. 2007), burn-out in U.S. medical students (Dyrbye et al. 2007), daily moods among multi-ethnic U.S. adults (Broudy et al. 2007), cognitive impairment among black and white university students (Salvatore and Shelton 2007), and current rates of psychiatric disorders in a national sample of Asian Americans (Gee et al. 2007b). Discrimination has also been associated with homesickness among college students (Poyrazli and Lopez 2007) and conduct problems among adolescents (Brody et al. 2006).

J Behav Med. 2009 Feb; 32(1): 20.

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DelcoScum t1_j5g79uo wrote

The problem is that even if the outcome isn't being influenced directly, it is still being influenced.

If the previous generation of your family/community statistically migrated to a career path, you are more likely to follow. For demographics that were discriminated against, this means that they still feel the effects of that discrimination, even though they might not have actually faced the same discrimination (they do, for the record, but were just talking in theory).

So do you ignore the problem or create small changes, and allow the minority to continue to feel the effects of those previous generations, but at the same time being more fair to the current candidates?

Or do you Overcorrect temporarily in an attempt to stimulate those communities and create normalcy throughout every demographic, but at the same time admittedly create a new kind of discrimination?

It's a nuanced discussion with no clear answer. At the end of the day skilled jobs are finite, so someone is going to lose out.

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vacri t1_j5hmc1r wrote

I like how you ask for evidence of difference in outcome... when the word 'discrimination' itself inherently means a difference in outcome. If someone is discriminated against, it's because they've had a difference in outcome.

What other words in English do you require evidence for their definitions?

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hurdurnotavailable t1_j5hsg15 wrote

.... there are other variables that can explain differences in outcome, besides "discrimination". Not sure what you don't understand about that.

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Varcharlos t1_j5hhukd wrote

Bruh a lot of your most recent discussions were about race. By your own logic, arenā€™t you also dealing with an unhealthy obsession?

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ZurakZigil t1_j5hqv3v wrote

they always project

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LeverageToMyPRT t1_j5i14gr wrote

Itā€™s moving our society backwards. But sure italics make your opinion infallible!

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ZurakZigil t1_j5iq9dr wrote

Or, hear me out, you're backwards and that's why everything looks so wonky.

glad I could help :)

edit: [redacted]

edit2: removed edit with nonsense tirade, sorry... or they edited their comment

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3wteasz t1_j5it90z wrote

You also need to be smart enough to be able to read the room, that you cause more damage than what you solve with your horrendous attempt. And btw, there is no guarantee that you are the smart one just because somebody dumber criticizes you. There are many things wrong in the US society and unfortunately your exceptionalism is not only one of them, it also keeps you from recognizing all the others.

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Varcharlos t1_j5j0dwa wrote

You say that American exceptionalism is an issue, but then proceeded to complain that we expose our racial inequalities. Wouldnā€™t the latter be an example of the opposite of exceptionalism?

Speaking of which, yeah sure Americans may think theyā€™re the best, but Europeans think theyā€™re better and smarter than Americans. Youā€™re not any better than Americans in the ā€œthinking youā€™re betterā€ department and you guys smoke too much. So get off your high horse.

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3wteasz t1_j5j10ww wrote

Sorry my man, I am not on a high horse for pointing out that Americans are on one.

Also, you're good at mixing up stuff and twisting words. I first complained about these graphs and about this constant need to point out racial differences and then, after being approached by this other dude with his exceptionalistic argument, said that his exceptionalism, the way they implied that the US society is without flaws, makes it hard for him to see my point. So I don't get your argument..

Edit: also, I hate speaking about "Americans", because my Mexican friends are totally different than the typical US-American we are talking here and I don't want to generalize in that way.

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ZurakZigil t1_j5ivqv0 wrote

*reads the room and sees a lot of progress, and all the regression from people pushing back saying "look at all the damage you've done"*

All the damage is because people won't let us move on, not because we are trying to move on.

Typical right winged nonsense. Plant your feet and require everyone to carry you while you exclaim "if we just went my way it would be easier."

So shut up sand start helping people.

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3wteasz t1_j5ixpgd wrote

Stop the meaningless slogans and provide examples. And get your mind into the shoes of other people. I am not "American" and I am for sure not right winged. The discussions about race in the US are annoyingly toxic, your society is divided beyond repair. I have no way myself because in my society racism is not as big a problem and the solutions don't require us to constantly reemphasize that there are so an so many others.

You should shut up and instead of constantly reiterating anachronistic facts about your outdated believe system, you should start asking yourself some harder questions. It's apparent that the current attempt has failed!

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ZurakZigil t1_j5jno05 wrote

Yeah, we already have tried the color-blind. Helped some but stagnated because it grew ignorance. We found in order to unify pur people we have to understand what divides us, and in order to do that we have to accept, study, and track what divides us.

Charts like this are one point of data to track. It's not the whole story, and it proves nothing within itself, but it's one metric to look at to gauge our progress.

PS. It's not out dated, it's the most up to date method. Many people, including myself at one point, do not get why we're now doing this. It's a multi-faceted challenge that needs addressing and it will take time to fix. Ignoring the challenge does not solve it.

edit: Right winged take, so either way... point still stands. And no offense, but i don't have the time to get sources for you. Id look at things with earlier signs of change (tech jobs are kinda a final bastion imo). Look at college admission and graduation records. Data will be young so there's not going to be huge upticks

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3wteasz t1_j5k5r7q wrote

Thanks for this differentiated response. I am thinking that what actually divides us is that we don't listen to others and the we see the "otherness" instead of the commonalities. Put white people into a bad neighborhood without fathers and you get the same problems as with other ethnicities. It seems that not the ethnicity is/has a problem, but that people are in bad places and that it's mostly minority ethnicities that are in bad places. For instance, if you are ethnic Russian in Eastern Estonia, you'll have a worse chance in this society than "pure" Estonians. So I am then wondering why it's race that is used to explain differences? And why is it that when social scientist speak about diversity, they don't abide by the statistical standards that exist, eg, in the actual diversity science (ecology). These shitty figures just plant weird ideas into the mind of anybody that doesn't fully understand ALL of those issues, and that's most people... Idk, I am simply not convinced it's a good solution to constantly tell people about their differences.

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tules t1_j5i2t1x wrote

"Why does every question have to involve race in the US?"

"Why shouldn't it? Maybe you're the racist!"

You can't win in these discussions u/BaalHammonBePraised, don't even try.

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arcticsnom t1_j5j74mh wrote

huh??? i didnt find a single race related comment in the past 20-30 comments

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drquaithe t1_j5i0z5r wrote

Because the USA was built by genocide and slavery and what it is now is their direct descendant. You can't understand much about it in any kind of precise way without factoring in race.

It's like measuring something about the British Isles and lumping together the statistics for England and Ireland. Or talking about austerity in the EU without factoring in the difference in its effects on the southern Europe vs central and northern. It will miss the picture.

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santimo87 t1_j5kv908 wrote

While I agree with all of that, some of these race based statistics are super weird (not exactly OP). Also, Hispanic is not a race and for a society that (understandably) pays so much attention to race (and has a big hispanic population) you should have figured out a better way to incorporate hispanic people and their issues to your analyses.

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streamofstars t1_j5izeoj wrote

>Because the USA was built by genocide and slavery and what it is now is their direct descendant.

Come on, this is a historical cliche for like 3/4 of countries in both Americas. But it's only the US that cannot get over it.

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drquaithe t1_j5k8mie wrote

Oh my sweet summer child. You should look at current events and political tensions in basically any country in either of the Americas and the Caribbean, and many of the countries beyond.

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AdRepresentative5085 t1_j5j0zl4 wrote

To be fair, when you have one pov that misses the "good ol' days" you're bound to find resistance. It doesn't help this pov has spawned another opposite fringe group.

​

It hasn't been more than 100 years since past segregation, so the next generation is bound to feel the effects.

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Neowynd101262 t1_j5h4c65 wrote

Because it can be an effective method of bringing an agenda to fruition.

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RevolutionaryChip864 t1_j5iy4x3 wrote

Thank you! The fact that in the US 'hispanic' and 'white' are two different racial group is absolutely bizarr. 'Hispanic' literally means 'spanish', which is simply European. You can not distinguish an italian from a spanish or a portuguese just by the look. Half of US political topics are about percentage of different races in different statistics. This is insane.

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slutshaa t1_j5iz1kp wrote

In the US it's not European - the overwhelming majority of Hispanic ppl in the US are of Mexican / South American origin

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RevolutionaryChip864 t1_j5izmdx wrote

And how would you describe the people of South American origin racially? They have certain characteristics distinguish them from 'whites'? Is Lionel Messi white or 'hispanic'? Is Del Potro white or hispanic? Rodrigo Santoro looks like an everyday guy from south France or Florense. You just couldn't tell. Would you categorize him as 'hispanic' in a workplace or white? Would you use some kind a color measurement? This racial systematization is extremely racist in my eyes, and also doesn't make any sense logically.

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SignificanceBulky162 t1_j5yw67k wrote

There are white Hispanics, they are not considered two different racial groups in the US just two different classifications.

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FlaSaltine239 t1_j5fzm6h wrote

Because the USA isn't a race, it's where races migrate to. Unfortunately one race dominated the entire society to the point of creating an advantage for only it. It's been roughly 8-10 generations since our creation but we're only 1 or 2 into other races being allowed to vote or own anything.

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IreneReiGargar t1_j5ifn7l wrote

You just watched a graph of the racial diversity of several companies. Dude you're that ignorant šŸ˜‚

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AdRepresentative5085 t1_j5j16eg wrote

May be unhealthy but can't blame them. It hasn't been more than 100 years since segregation was fully abolished, by the way. How do you think the next generation feels? How should they move on?

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glitch241 t1_j5ioz9q wrote

Because the US is one of the most racially diverse countries.

Itā€™s easy for no one to notice racial issues in a homogeneous society. Nearly all countries in the world are basically ethnostates.

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kmeci t1_j5j1lyo wrote

Go tell that to Indians who have over 120 major languages and more than 2000 ethnic groups that they're all the same because of skin color.

The "race" as US understands it such an arbitrary concept that virtually no other countries even recognize it.

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glitch241 t1_j5j6jb7 wrote

There are almost 5 million Indians in the US so most of those languages and ethnicities would also be represented. US leads the world in current immigrant population at 50 million. 42 million Americans of African descent compared to 40 thousand in India. How can India be more diverse with such a small population from Africa, Europe or South America? All the thousands of ethnic groups in the US and to you they are all the same because they are just ā€œAmericansā€ now.

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kmeci t1_j5j96cp wrote

Because diversity doesn't equal number of immigrants and/or skin colors. What's more "diverse", when your neighbor has identical culture but a different skin tone or when he doesn't even speak the same language?

In both ethnic and linguistic diversity rankings US doesn't even reach top 50: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level

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glitch241 t1_j5jcuwn wrote

Moving the goal post fallacy. You established that number of languages and ethnic groups present was the criteria for measuring diversity. Once your criteria was challenged, you then introduced a new methodology based on a researcher using fractionalization, a methodology that happens to achieve your conclusion.

The US is a very diverse country given its constant flow of immigrants and lack of lengthy history or genealogy. Can you claim other places are more diverse that have a bunch of tribes and ethnicities that belong to greater ethnic and linguistic families? Sure I guess. Certainly canā€™t try that claim in most countries though. Most are low immigration, low minority counties. European counties are basically ethnostates that donā€™t come out and say it. But the numbers and immigration policies donā€™t lie.

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SpiderFarter t1_j5g6amy wrote

Identity politics to divide and create a permanent dependency class increasing overall government control. Mostly fostered by the left.

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kdavis37 t1_j5gkhqq wrote

Put down the crack.

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SpiderFarter t1_j5gw7e3 wrote

Started with the great society when welfare started to destroy the black family by replacing work.

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kdavis37 t1_j5gx2jk wrote

It started when black people were fucking enslaved, followed by laws created to keep black people from keeping and growing generational wealth, followed by laws to keep black people from voting, followed by keeping black people from staying together as families and buying homes.

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