How to forcibly get POA over an elder parent (Burlington Co)

Submitted by briinde t3_11dhgg6 in newjersey

My father’s mental health has been declining and he keeps giving all of his monthly income (Social Security, small pension) to scammers online. He’s even opened up credit cards to support this habit.

We’ve told him he needs to stop or he can’t live here anymore, but he refuses to change and is belligerent about it.

I’d like to forcibly get POA over him and / or have him mentally declared unfit/ forcibly place him outside of our home (he lives with us). Any or all of those things.

He really has no real expenses so not having access to his money won’t be an issue for him, but he can’t afford to pay for a nursing home and can’t manage his finances to live elsewhere.

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ButcherOf_Blaviken t1_ja8mgjp wrote

This is probably better suited to r/legaladvice but they will probably tell you that you need to see an attorney that specializes in elderly care. I would start with google and go from there. Good luck.

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SwifferSeal t1_ja9o32r wrote

Based on what you're describing with scams, I would outreach Adult Protective Services. (609-747-7745). He's being subject to a form of elder abuse with these scammers. They can also point you in the direction of how to get him evaluated to determine his competency to make legal, financial, and medical decisions for himself. This will likely also involve in elder law attorney and possibly a case manager.

As for placement for him, there are some options for placements if he does not require the level of care a nursing home would provide (disability housing, independent living, PACE programs can help with living arrangements). APS and the office on aging are definitely good resources to start with that can help you there as well.

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Tbyrd13 t1_ja9o7g4 wrote

You would need to file a guardianship action. Contact a local estate litigation or elder care attorney.

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Passion724 t1_ja9wym7 wrote

Social security doesn’t recognize power of attorney, they have Representative Payee’s which they decide themselves. You have to prove he’s mentally unfit generally with a complete SSA-787 by his doctor. Call his local office for assistance.

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willowtreeInTheWind t1_ja8qu98 wrote

Does he know they are scammers? You use the word “habit.” What does he get out of it?

Having someone declared incompetent is complex, and you need a lawyer.

In the meantime could you swipe his phone and get the scam numbers blocked on it? It seems like stopping him from even receiving the calls is key.

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briinde OP t1_ja8taxe wrote

He thinks he’s doing good for these people (supposedly paying for tuition and medical expenses). He cannot be convinced otherwise, every single member of his immediate family has tried to tell him from everything form a compassionate standpoint up to and including yelling at him eventually once you can’t even make an inch of difference in his thinking.

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willowtreeInTheWind t1_ja930k8 wrote

How is he physically? If he’s not frail, maybe he could do volunteer work: holding preemies in the NICU is one thing older people do.

Maybe let him donate a certain amount to legit charities

Giving money to scammers is fulfilling his need to feel useful and do good. He needs a more productive way to do that.

Also get the phone under control. I know there are special phones for seniors that have ways of blocking scammers.

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briinde OP t1_ja98a45 wrote

These people have convinced him that what you and I would call real charities are scams.

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infomanus t1_jaa7ovd wrote

Cut his internet access

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briinde OP t1_jaa86g2 wrote

He’s devious. He took the car that he and my mother own today (he really shouldn’t be driving) and drive to the library to get done what he wanted to do (Western union I assume, etc)

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Iheartpinotgrigio t1_ja9gn3y wrote

You'd have to make application with the court to have a guardian appointed.

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AnNJgal t1_ja9l1l6 wrote

Call an elder law attorney. Are you on any of his living will documents, POA documents, etc? Do you have access to any of them?

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captain_222 t1_jaafl4c wrote

So when an elder is broke, isnt there nursing homes they can live at if they give up their ss , etc, provided by the state?

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briinde OP t1_jaafzez wrote

He’s probably right on the borderline of qualifying for Medicaid due to his recurring social security payments.

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captain_222 t1_jaahdnt wrote

I don't understand. So if you get too much in Ss, you can't qualify for Medicare? And Medicaid will pay for a nursing home?

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briinde OP t1_jaahoh8 wrote

Yes if you are in poverty Medicaid will pay for a nursing home. If you have a lot of money you can pay cash for a nursing home.

If you’re somewhere between pretty well off and dirt poor, you are in no man’s land and probably can’t get into a nursing home.

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Jimmytowne t1_jab3s1j wrote

There are very few if any nursing homes in NJ that accept Medicaid. And those that do, have a waiting list longer than most people alive. And if you find one that accepts everyone on Medicaid (state facility), it will be poorly run and basically an adult prison. Bugs, bed sores, screaming souls. That type of environment.

Average run of the mill nursing home in NJ is $8-10k/month out of pocket. People sell their homes and use that for their care. If you are on a life plan, when your money runs out they will allow you to stay. Typically you’ve spent $300k-$1M before then.

Aging in home is expensive too. A home health aide runs about 10k a month for a live in caregiver. $20k a month if you are getting up in the middle of the night.

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briinde OP t1_jab5uen wrote

Ok given that my father has no assets, has income of $2400 a month, and even if he qualifies for Medicaid it seems unlikely we’d find a place…

What are some viable options?

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Jimmytowne t1_jab6miw wrote

Start with an elder care attorney. They can put you in touch with the resources and community outreach you need. He may qualify for SNAP, section 8, senior public housing, and a road map for state guardianship. It’s difficult because he has living relatives, so you should seek legal advice. It’s less of a headache to align yourself with the professionals that can navigate the system. Reddit answers will be piecemeal at best.

Good luck

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AbazabaYouMyOnlyFren t1_jaawxta wrote

He can't get scammed if he can't get online.

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briinde OP t1_jaaz8gq wrote

He’ll find ways to get online. Today he took the car keys (he’s on the title of my parents’ car so he didn’t steal it - but he probably shouldn’t be driving)and drove to the library and got online.

He won’t listen to reason, and he’s becoming increasingly belligerent with the obstacles we’re throwing in his way to getting online. Yelling and screaming, following us around and badgering us. It interfered with my wife and I’s work today (we work from home some days) and we have a 7 year old daughter and I don’t want her exposed to this.

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thementor31337 t1_jaax253 wrote

File for guardianship, the Burlington County Surrogate's Office can assist. You will need two doctors to examine him and find that he had a mental issue or condition that makes him unable to make reasonable decisions for himself. The process is not that difficult and you can likely manage without an attorney, however if he is being belligerent his court appointed counsel may contest the guardianship on his behalf. If you think it is likely he would contest the guardianship, get a lawyer. There are a lot of great guardianship attorneys in Burlington County.

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briinde OP t1_jaayrsn wrote

Would I be the guardian? Or like a state appointed guardian?

I’d prefer it not be me as he’s becoming increasingly belligerent daily now. Truth be told I rather he not live here anymore. It’s not mentally healthy for any of us.

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thementor31337 t1_jaazqxz wrote

You could apply to be guardian or you and your mom could apply to be co-guardians. Or another willing family member. Once guardianship is granted, you would make the decisions about living arrangements. In NJ there are no independent guardians and the State will only appoint a guardian generally if the person is already in a facility and is indigent. Some lawyers will appoint as guardians, but it's not typical.

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briinde OP t1_jab0aot wrote

Thanks so much for your advice on the procedure. Do you have any advice on getting him out of my house?

He’s insufferable and hell bent on getting his way, at all costs including berating is and badgering us. I can’t do this level of drama for any longer period of time.

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thementor31337 t1_jab3tbq wrote

You could call Adult Protective Services like someone else suggested. It's hard though to get private placements when someone starts getting combative. Also if you have concerns about him driving you can make a report to the Motor Vehicle Commission medical review and they will evaluate whether he should still be driving.

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briinde OP t1_jab657i wrote

Thanks again. They’re on my list for tomorrow

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Jimmytowne t1_jab4faf wrote

Unfortunately you are stuck between a rock and a hard place. You don’t want him to be scammed because you care about him. But kicking him out could quickly lead to homelessness.

He may be undiagnosed or under diagnosed. I would make an appointment with a geriatric doctor and maybe a neurologist. Also a psychologist.

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[deleted] t1_ja914ip wrote

[removed]

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briinde OP t1_ja954nz wrote

We don’t really care about or need his money. It’s more of wanting the overall behavior to stop.

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Ecstatic-Passage-113 t1_ja960df wrote

Why?

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briinde OP t1_ja97z49 wrote

Ok take the money out of it. There are another accompanying behaviors that are associated with this whole scammer situation that need to stop.

Like talking with them in the living room on speakerphone on his phone, and asking other family members to give him money so that he can send it to them. These people telling him sob stories that regularly bring him to tears, etc.

If I can stop the flow of money, they’ll stop bothering him when they realize he has no spendable money.

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Ecstatic-Passage-113 t1_jaah0o8 wrote

Here's my thing.

  1. You posted this asking how you can take control of his finances against his will.

  2. You then make a reply to one of my comments that "he's asking for money from family to pay to the scammers"

So what is it? Does he have his own money or not?

Also, you're naming inconveniences to you. Him talking loudly in the living room. Him being moved "to tears"...

This whole thing sounds weird, which is why I'm questioning you right now.

You're leaving some details out. And I have known quite a few people that did crazy things to make sure they get "their proper share" of their parents retirement/inheritance.

You need to explain this situation out more.

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briinde OP t1_jaahes1 wrote

In addition to all of his money, he’s asking others to contribute. I guess we’ll just disagree that I have a right to be upset about this.

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Ecstatic-Passage-113 t1_ja968kk wrote

It's his money. He worked for it. He should decide how it's spent.

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Bindernator t1_ja98588 wrote

To be this obtuse with someone who sounds like they’re having a tough time getting their father’s affairs in order to take care of him as he declines is nuts to me, to be rude on top of it is wrong. If you have family that cares about you, which I sincerely doubt considering your lack of empathy in this situation, I hope you never have to see them decline the way some elderly people do.

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briinde OP t1_ja984e2 wrote

Wouldn’t you also want to see a family member not get scammed?

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Ecstatic-Passage-113 t1_jaahbwx wrote

I want my family to be happy. And if I have to come out of my pocket for them to do whatever it takes for that to happen then so be it.

My parents had the hardest life and they sacrificed all their happiness for me.

The least I can give them at this point is money.....

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