Comments
EnemyOfEloquence t1_j9qsyf1 wrote
I'd like to get back on my soapbox and say fuck the wage tax.
JBizznass t1_j9qwl20 wrote
It’s super regressive and drives business and middle, upper middle, and wealthy taxpayers out of the city. The city’s problems are aren’t going to get fixed until it’s wage taxes and business taxes are in line with the suburban business hubs it competes with.
AbsentEmpire OP t1_j9pures wrote
I think the article would have been better if they also referenced in the current number of school age children in the city, along with public and private school enrollments compared with pre and post pandemic to really get a picture of what families with children are doing.
I think the idea that parents who went to private during 2020 because they open and have just opted to stay in them, is also a good theory.
JBizznass t1_j9qvx6t wrote
If you are paying for private school and you don’t have to live in the city (like as a job requirement) it doesn’t make financial sense to stay in the city. Tuition at Roman Catholic is over $10k a year for one student. My property taxes in Delco for a 3k sq ft house on a quarter acre is less than that and have access to a top tier public school. And don’t pay any wage taxes. Why would you stay and pay more for less?
AbsentEmpire OP t1_j9rpgtw wrote
Well as another commenter suggested for one of the possible reasons there are so many charter applications from the Northeast, is that they're multi general residents with family and friends who live around them, and they don't want to give that up, so they pay for private school.
It's a personal choice where finance isn't the sole factor for decision making, factors such as proximity of your support network, the inconvenience of moving versus the quality of the neighborhood you're currently in, etc.
Otherwise you're right, if one was to make a choice purely based on finance and quality of government services, moving to the suburbs is the better option every single time without question.
[deleted] t1_j9tsa91 wrote
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DifferentJaguar t1_j9ro063 wrote
Personal preference?
AbsentEmpire OP t1_j9osdgp wrote
The highlights:
>More than 26,000 students applied for seats for the 2023-24 school year at the 72 Philadelphia charter-school campuses participating in a centralized application process — up from two years ago, though still below pre-pandemic levels, according to the nonprofit that manages the system. ...
>About 7,600 of this year’s applicants received at least one offer to attend a charter, leaving more than 18,000 students on waitlists, according to Elevate215, which manages the Apply Philly Charter website. ...
>Much of the demand appeared to be concentrated at several charter schools in the Northeast, where the three MaST schools likely account for about half of the wait-listed students. ...
>Fewer students are applying to charters than before the pandemic. The number of applicants grew from 29,500 in 2019-20 to more than 34,000 in 2020-21, then fell to fewer than 24,000 the next year. Over the last two years, the number of applicants has rebounded to more than 26,000, though it has yet to reach the levels seen several years ago.
The interesting idea here
>“These are areas where families are traditionally engaging at looking at different options,” Peterman said, adding that the number of charter applicants “shows a desire to stay in the city. ... I think that’s something that can’t be overlooked or underappreciated right now.”
I hadn't thought about this before, curious what others think on the idea, that charters encourage families who would otherwise move out of the city for schools, to stay in the city.
Personally I'm not convinced about that idea, but with the explosion of housing costs in the suburbs since 2020, perhaps families on the edge of being able to afford a place in the burbs are taking this into consideration.
rovinchick t1_j9p05hj wrote
Having worked a white collar job for the city with a residency requirement, I can say that the majority of my coworkers applied to charter schools for their kids. If they didn't get in, they sent their kids to private/parochial schools. All that to say some people stay in the city because of their jobs or because they don't have enough saved to make a move to the burbs, and especially in the Northeast, many stay because they have family roots and neighborhood connections, often spanning generations, that they cherish.
I don't think charters keep as many people in the city as they just offer an alternative to families that would otherwise send their kids to private schools. I also think the demand is lower post pandemic because many switched to Catholic schools that were open for in person instruction and never switched back.
Vague_Disclosure t1_j9p6oxz wrote
That was my thought after reading the title. Is demand lower because kids are going to public school or is it lower because people who would go to charter schools have already moved or are enrolling in private schools.
animesekaielric t1_j9pcmoe wrote
I would imagine it would be that during the housing boom of the pandemic, families with children in the city have traded in their homes in the city for more space in the burbs and into those school districts. The influx of new owners were majority first time home buyers with no family and kids yet. So this may just have been temporary as the city population boons. That being said I don’t have children but I dread sending my child to a school with asbestos, terrible food and no A/C, the public school system needs critical rehabilitation
AbsentEmpire OP t1_j9p2q6d wrote
Makes sense, I do remember reading catholic and other private school enrollment spiked during the pandemic because they went back to in person learning as fast as possible while the public schools stayed closed.
petedogg t1_j9phr5f wrote
It depends on where you live. Many of the public schools in Center City and adjacent neighborhoods are just fine, especially for grades K-5. Charters might be helpful for families living in neighborhoods further outside of CC if there hasn’t been a critical mass of families choosing to invest and engage in their neighborhood school. There are families (mine included) for whom school isn’t the primary factor for choosing where to live. Some of us actually enjoy being in a place where we don’t need a car, can teach our kids independence by taking septa on their own, can walk to the local park to meet friends, etc. I would not give those up simply for the possibility that my kid might get a better education and more life and career opportunities as a result of going to a suburban school.
There are also a ton of free and easily accessible programs and resources available to Philly public school kids that suburban kids don’t get access to. Even just naming the programs I’ve heard about recently in the past week: someone just told me about a free rowing camp on the Schuylkill exclusively for public school kids in the city. Or a free two week orchestra camp primarily for Philly district public school kids at the Mann Center run by the Philadelphia Orchestra. There are countless other examples.
AbsentEmpire OP t1_j9pqlaj wrote
These are all valid reasons to stay in the city with kids. Although the Northeast is pretty car dependent, so I don't think that's a factor here in the number of people opting to apply for charters.
I think the article would have benefited from also listing total school age children within the city, and the numbers going to public and private to get a real sence of what families are doing.
For my partner and I we've already agreed that we won't be sending our kid to the public schools here. I grew up here and went to the city schools, and it wasn't great back in the 90s. The in school violence and out of control behavior has only got worse since, and the academic quality was bad then and it's bad now. My partner went to school in the burbs and hearing about his and his friends experiences honestly makes me jealous. I don't want my kids to go through what I had to here, especially when my partner and I can afford other options.
It's either we win the lottery and get into one of get into one of the good charters (unlikely), go private, or move to one of the few streetcar suburbs around the city to get a walkable environment. The magnet school lottery isn't something I like, and basically would require that after elementary we either win the lottery and get into one, pay an ass load of money for private, or move out to the burbs for the secondary school grades.
Moving out for schools historically is what people have opted to do in Philly, but that may be changing, which is why I thought the article was interesting.
petedogg t1_j9pw9g3 wrote
I don’t judge any parent’s decision to do what they feel is best for their kid but at the same time, I think it’s unfortunate when people (not saying you) do so with a lack of accurate understanding of the Philly public schools. It’s unfair to characterize all Philly public schools as dangerous and offering a poor quality of education. Yes, this is true of many schools in the district. But not all. Almost all kids who live in CC or an adjacent neighborhood and get As and Bs with a clean behavioral and attendance record will get into a magnet middle school and magnet high school which will set them up to go to a highly ranked university. If that’s what you and you kid want of course. That’s not the life track for everyone but for those who want it, the Philly public schools will not get in the way of that (depending on what neighborhood you live in).
Of course, I wish every kid in Philly had access to the same educational experience as those who attend Meredith, Greenfield, Masterman, Central, etc. but to be fair, no big city has really figured this out.
AbsentEmpire OP t1_j9pyow3 wrote
I overall agree with you.
I'd be hesitant to say almost all center city kids with good grades and attendance will get into one of the magnet schools though. The school district is changing the admissions and selection criteria for the magnet schools to be based less on academic merit and more on zip code.
A change which I would understand parents looking at, and opting instead for private schools or moving, rather than rolling the dice based on previous admissions standards.
The way the school district functions is a major disservice to families looking to raise their kids in an urban environment, and the city as a whole. Hopefully it will improve in the future so families don't have to have these discussions or have to be financially well off enough that it's not an issue.
a-german-muffin t1_j9q1873 wrote
> The school district is changing the admissions and selection criteria for the magnet schools to be based less on academic merit and more on zip code.
This is borderline misinformation. There's a lottery, yes, but you can't even get into it without meeting the academic requirements - like no one's snagging a spot at Masterman just because they happen to be from 19121. The standards are still there.
It's not to say the lottery's perfect or doesn't create its own set of issues, but the chances of someone getting denied at every magnet are low (and this is coming from a parent who just went through the high school selection process with one kiddo who got into five magnets immediately and came off the waitlist on another within a week).
aranhalaranja t1_j9x3oc1 wrote
I had thought the lottery was completely open. Open to anyone. Do you have any links to this info? Is there a centralized site offering info on how standards have changed for the magnet schools ?
a-german-muffin t1_j9yg1qb wrote
Sure, you could probably waste your time and apply to schools without meeting the requirements, but you’re not getting into the lottery for those schools in that case.
It’s all on the district’s school selection page.
aranhalaranja t1_ja6bxqx wrote
a-german-muffin t1_ja77ut8 wrote
Yeah, I read that and commented several times in the thread here yesterday. It’s highly likely that’s a one-year blip because PSSAs couldn’t be used for admissions — they weren’t required for two years because of COVID.
Please read the standards on the SDP website and show me where it says you can get in with substandard scores otherwise.
petedogg t1_j9q000w wrote
I’m sure there will be changes. That being said, I stick with my statement that almost all kids with good grades get into a magnet school. I hear it was extremely rare for a student who met all the qualification criteria not get into a magnet high school if they applied to five. There should be a way to prevent that scenario from occurring. And yes, there are at least five “good” magnet high schools. Even beyond the 5-6 schools that are widely regarded as being the “best”, the school district is very accommodating to kids who want to be challenged further regardless of what school they attend and pays for them to take classes at local universities which end up being better than AP classes in some ways since they’re actual college classes.
[deleted] t1_j9yrifo wrote
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Vague_Disclosure t1_j9p6ep5 wrote
It's a good thought to explore. IMO if that's the path you want to take you're rolling the dice on your kids education. What happens if you don't get into the charter and you are forced into the public school? Do you just send your kid there and hope for better luck next year. How many years do you do this for until you say fuck it and just move.
iwant2behipster t1_j9pcrlp wrote
If your kid doesn't get in for Kindergarten it is a long shot for any grade after. For Kindergarten all the spots are open (save siblings of enrolled students, depending on the charter) but in grade 1 on, you are applying for only a couple open spots from kids moving etc.
SouthPhilly_215 t1_j9ro0y3 wrote
Its a shame because graduates from charters don’t seem to outperform public school graduates by any meaningful margin…
AskMoreQuestionsOk t1_j9s1dgg wrote
How a school does depends on a number of factors, including selectivity and the quality of teachers. If there’s nothing special about either of those, don’t be shocked when you get the same bell curve on the other end.
Parents choose private and charter schools for a variety of reasons even knowing this. Safety, religion, curriculum, access to certain courses, common views, volunteering, politics and drama (or lack of it), social class, summer classes, class size, sports and other proxies for parental input and control are all a consideration.
Some parents today just want more control and certainty over what’s going on in their kids education than previous generations.
fritolazee t1_j9tswo9 wrote
>Parents choose private and charter schools for a variety of reasons even knowing this
I actually do wonder how many people actually know this.
AskMoreQuestionsOk t1_j9wb4hq wrote
Sometimes it’s not the biggest thing. I have a kid with autism. Highest on my list was where his best friend was going. It took so long to make that friend that I wasn’t taking chances. 10/10 would make the same choice again. It doesn’t really matter how good the school is on paper if your kid is sad all the time because he can’t make friends.
JBizznass t1_j9pf8dl wrote
I would hypothesize that a good number of the type of families who would previously be fighting for those charter spots just said fuck it during covid and moved to the burbs where their kids were garunteed to get a good education and not have to hope and pray that they were chosen in a lottery.
Remote work unchained a lot of middle class professionals from city life and many took advantage of that to get their kids to better school systems. And I’ve said it before and will say it again, all at a cost of living that is equal to or even possibly lower than being in the city. If the city wants to retain these families the tax burden needs to go down and services need to go up.