This is so comical to me because I've seen, in the last 2 months, three instances on the Red Line alone of a group of teens-to-early-twenties kids/people jump the turnstiles while a literal group of DC Metro PD officers (at least 4 each time, one with a dog) were about 20 feet away just shooting the shit and having a good time. In each group, at least half of them saw this happen and none of them did a thing. Admittedly, I don't have a ton of respect for Metro PD because, honestly, what do they actually do? Then you see junk like that and any modicum of respect I did have is completely erased. Then on top of that WMATA is actively posting digital and physical posters about reporting turnstile jumpers. What a farce. What's Metro PD going to do? Stand around doing nothing even harder? Instead of raising fares (though they are pretty cheap comparatively, I'll agree), why doesn't WMATA make their cops DO something? Or maybe install fare gates that prevent jumping?

Fare jumpers gonna jump.

If they made fare gates you couldn’t jump or simply slide past, then they wouldn’t have to be raising the rates. Those who pay shouldn’t subsidize jumpers and skippers. Make it totally free already, because clearly paying is optional.

I agree the fare table system is overly complicated. I like the zone idea, but maybe stick with 2-3 zones instead of 5, it looks a little messy.

The question here is, if fare enforcement were drastically increased, that comes at a cost. How many fare-jumpers are going to switch to paying vs. just not riding? It's conceivable that fare enforcement might actually be more of a money drain than fare-jumping (note that I am not aware of any analysis on this one way or another).

Of course, then there are the variables of safety, and perceived safety, along with overcrowding and the related assessed need for greater frequency, that also affect a paying customer's choice to ride or not. So it's not exactly a simple problem to really solve.

DC kind of shot itself in the foot by proudly announcing the decriminalization of fare evasion, which was basically tacit permission for fare-jumpers to go wild.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2018/12/05/dc-council-decriminalizes-metro-fare-evasion-giving-its-final-approval-contested-measure/

comments section here is brain dead - how do y’all still think fare evaders are the reason metro doesn’t have money it literally makes no sense

I know from a fairness perspective this is a problem but with fares being optional seems like metro use is just means-tested. I don’t mind a means-tested pay to use system. If fares are such that it significantly reduces ridership then that would be a problem.

I think the problem is how it’s displayed on the map. The way to do it is to just have the zone number next to the name of each station. That’s how people will actually use it.

For example, you need to go from Metro Center to Landover, you look at the numbers next to Metro Center and Landover and easily determine what 3 - 1 is.

Oh, I absolutely get that and that's a well-spoken point. It's a problem everywhere, and not just in the US. I live part time in Barcelona and while the metro there has slightly less jumpable fare gates, it's still done with some frequency. What's comical is that WMATA has the audacity to act as if they care, when they clearly don't nor does the city. So the anti-gate-jumpers media is so frustratingly stupid and the complete lack of give-a-shit from Metro PD when they literally have nothing else to do is all just so laughable. It truly makes me wonder what kind of trained geese are running WMATA.

It’s time for Short-Term Gate Jumping. Imma join them just to look normal.

Metro could set the price at $2 or $3 or $4, but any of those options could have equity concerns. For instance, long-distance commuters could ride 30 miles for $3 dollars – but a lower-income rider going three or four stops would pay the same.

Just get the system running reliably. Trying to figure who has what money living where is damn near impossible. An unfortunate part of being poor is that some things are a larger proportion of your income than if you were rich. The only way to solve that is leveling at tax time not trying to micromanage every single aspect of human existence.

They could retrofit the existing fare gates to make tall doors similar to what Paris has.

Have you ever rode the metro? Prob half the people on it did not pay the fare.

They are facing a $168 million dollar deficit--Most of that is not from lost fares.

I know a guy who earns 120k a year and skips the metro gate. If it’s gonna be means tested it can’t be an honesty system.

And charging more for those who do pay will not solve that deficit.

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Which is why it's not the only proposal.

Damn some people lol. Yeah I guess an imperfect means test on susceptibility to social shame.

I ride every day 2x a day that’s an exaggeration

Personally, I think zone-based fare systems suck and are equally as confusing (if not more confusing) than the system we currently have now. There is a huge equity issue with them as well in that it often punishes those who take short trips across zones, but rewards those who take long trips within one zone.

Let's say all of DC was one zone. A rider could take the Red Line from Ft. Totten to Woodley Park, and just pay $2.25. A rider could also take the Green Line from Ft. Totten to West Hyattsville (just one stop), but because the trip would cross a fare zone, the rider would pay $3.25 for that trip.

I would be in favor of simplifying the current system. Perhaps calculating the trip distance solely based on a straight line distance (rather than an average between that and the actual track distance between two stations), along with eliminating the distinction between peak/off peak fares. The peak/off peak fare scheme is likely the most confusing aspect of our current fare system.

Regarding fare increases, no one wants to see them, but they are inevitable at this point with inflation. IMO it's remarkable as it is that WMATA hasn't raised fares in years. I agree that fare evasion is a problem, but fare hikes are going to occur with or without fare evasion. I just hope that by the time they do launch fare hikes, they implement a low-income fare scheme that would offset said hikes. Tying low-income fares to WIC/Medicaid/SNAP is a great idea imo.

glad I stopped using the metro and now ride my bike every where. Went from a daily commuter to now maybe once every 3 months.

I can tell you this too. I'm in sales and had WMATA as a prospective client. Despite offering a better service at a significantly lower cost we lost the sale. Its not a well managed organization drop top to bottom.

"We’re not the New York City Subway, we are a hybrid system,” Clarke said. “We are a commuter rail, and a subway system combined – and that is a big difference.”

Imagine if Brooklyn residents were subsidizing Metro North residents in Westchester or Stamford.

That's essentially what this map is saying for the Silver Line.

I'd like to see a disabled person sue Metro because there are no handicapped fare jumping options.

There is very high risk to the police officer's career if they try to stop any citizen for doing anything. What happens if the citizen resists, fights back, or runs away? There is a chance something could go wrong, somebody could get hurt, and then the police officer's career is at risk. If they do nothing there is a 100% chance that nothing will happen to them and their won't be any complaints.

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Nah. MPD doesn't care, service is trash, and raising the rates to airfare levels won't make a dent in the deficit based on ridership. It's not on the few (who will pay) to subsidize the many (who won't).

What a jerk

I’ve seen people with bikes push through the emergency exit gate to bypass the turnstile. A person in a wheelchair could do the same.

Ehhhh. This argument might hold more water if DC wasn’t so sprawling. But going to Reston and the airport on the metro is different than going to bedroom communities in Stamford. There are integral parts of the city infrastructure out there.

To be fair, i take the metro a lot and it’s not the majority who skip the gates. It’s mainly kids and homeless people.

This. The people relying on metro are the people least able to afford fare hikes. The people most able to afford to subsidize this system are the lobbyists and business owners driving into the city in Mercedes E class sedans.

Introduce a congestion charge on every vehicle entering the city or a flat fare on the bridges over the Potomac and watch the cash to fund Metro pile up.

Does DC have any way at all for getting money from MD/VA drivers? If we can’t enforce collections on cars with $40k in tickets, how can we do that with every MD/VA car? This is an issue that only the conservative governors of MD and VA can help solve, and they have no reason to do so.

I would challenge that “half” doesn’t pay. I’d believe 15%-20% on the high side. But half is a bit strong.

That will just mean more fare jumpers.

What does Metro lose if free riders don’t ride? Some annoying people who take up space.

Raising fares isn’t going to fix that, especially with lax fare enforcement.

Means testing is itself an expensive and burdensome process.

I often take one-stop metro rides and the fact that it's minimum $2 is so messy to me when you can take a bus across the city to Virginia for also $2 lol

They already have installed the gates???

Then why have fares at all?

Do you know how many demographics in this city get free rides anyway? And did you know that regardless of if anyone pays or even is there, the trains will run anyway and will cost the same amount regardless. Missed revenue is not lost money and wmata’s inability to budget properly is not at all the fault of fare evaders. More likely, it’s due to the huge costs of metro police who do very little to stop crime on the metro (see: shooting at the petworth station this morning), and overinflated corporate salaries, along with incompetence regarding maintenance and updates which cost huge money in the medium and long term

Isn’t Metro’s current plan to start more heavily enforcing fare evasion pretty soon, though? Isn’t that why they have all those signs up now with the fines for each jurisdiction listed, so that they can give people notice that greater enforcement is coming before it actually does?

I haven’t been following this closely enough to know exactly what Metro’s plan is. But imo if I have it right, that seems like a pretty solid plan to me. Give people adequate notice about a change in enforcement and then hold them accountable.

Good question, metro should probably be a public service and gov’t subsidized to be free for DC residents

very good point, there shouldn’t be fares for public transportation

Fairs would be fun.

> Obviously, we haven’t provided the level of service that we’ve wanted to over the last couple of years…

Ok. So boom! Don’t raise fare prices— one flat rate to go anywhere should be the norm. $2.1 off-peak, $3 peak.

😞 yeah they would be…

> drop top to bottom

Raindrops, drop top, smokin on cookie in the hotbox!

Yes. Haven’t you seen the big scary sign warning people about fines?

>Let's say all of DC was one zone. A rider could take the Red Line from Ft. Totten to Woodley Park, and just pay $2.25. A rider could also take the Green Line from Ft. Totten to West Hyattsville (just one stop), but because the trip would cross a fare zone, the rider would pay $3.25 for that trip.

Yeah, where I live, im directly between two metro stops, one in one zone and the other in a more expensive one. But the bus only goes to the stop in the more expensive zone, so even though I live in the zone that would be cheaper to travel from, it's more complicated to get to that stop and I'd pay much more for just starting one stop over.

The problem that I see is that most commuters will just refuse to take transit if driving is cheaper. Need to get these people out of their cars already.

Bro with the amount of people jumping the turnstiles I think it is a significant portion

Oof. So a month ago they were going to give us money to ride the metro and now they want to take more of our money to ride the metro. Big sad.

The fact of sprawl is reflected in the recognition that Metro is a combo of commuter rail and rapid transit subway. As a combo, fares should reflect that.

Many cities have their most recent iteration airport well outside the city center (most notably Tokyo) and it costs more to get to than other closer-in destinations. Even Chicago which has a flat rate system charges extra to get to ORD (vs MDW).

More to your point about sprawl, on one hand I agree that we don't want people priced out of the city center to be penalized (and discouraged from transit) with nosebleed high prices, but there should be a balance of fairness. For every working class household pushed out, there's probably a more well off one that either wants a fancy new apartment that's cheaper in the exurbs than Navy Yard (vs an older unit in Columbia Heights) or a sprawling McMansion that's cheaper in Ashburn-upon-Dulles than Spring Valley (vs an attached home in Chevy Chase).

And the zone system seems to punish those coming from DC from the suburbs more, which is where a lot of the traffic is already coming from and where we want to incentivize higher public transit usage

There were 12 minute headways on the O/S and B lines this morning. Metro needs to fix its shit.

The problem that I see is that most commuters will just refuse to take transit if driving is cheaper. Need to get these people out of their cars already.

I don't think so! I use my car to get groceries for my family. Also I'm disabled. What kind of mass transit Nazi are you?

Yeah I specifically mentioned those signs in my comment

They estimate they lost about $10 million in lost revenue during the first half of the year. It's a lot of money but many/most people jumping are kids who don't pay anyway.

I didn't say it would. I was responding to someone who said that fare raises wouldn't be on the table if everyone paid, which is likely not true.

A lot of them are teenagers who ride free anyways (Kids Ride Free Program). They're supposed to tap their card but many of them don't bother with it.

"Bro" it amounts to something like 1% of their operating budget.

Literally a fare collection station on the entry points would do it

Those people you talk about that “want a McMansion in the exurbs” aren’t using metro to get into the city. Unless you propose a taxation solution that captures drivers, you aren’t going to catch their revenue whether the fare is $3 or $50

DC Council =/= WMATA

Yeah especially because the vast majority of fare jumpers seem to be kids/teens who ride free anyways. I very rarely see adults jumping.

I don’t know, but I would think that the kids rides are reimbursed to WMATA by the government no? Also, their estimates are definitely conservative. Q1 2022 revenue was 50 million dollars, if 15% of people jump turnstiles (probably conservative lol) thats 35 mil per year

As long as they make fare jumping the norm, fares could be $100 a ride and it wouldn't' raise money for them. It would just make fare jumping more common.

It might get to the point where the ADA protests that the gates only make handicapped people pay.

There are quite a few comments implying that few adults are guilty of fare evasion. It depends completely on the metro station you are entering from. I had not witnessed mass fare evasion until I moved and my regular station was on a different line. I would say at my new station only about 1 in 3 adults pay the fare. Previously I don't believe I witnessed an instance of fare evasion over a three year period.

Cut service while raising prices. Seems about right.

Make it free, paid for by advertisements

Keep it simple, fare based on overall distance so people can understand the overall cost structure. If they charge more during rush hour it’s understandable.

Improve the product and experience, make people feel safe and comfortable and see what happens. Need to add separate and active security everywhere. Clean it up.

why would i care if fare evaders stop riding? either revenue collected goes up because they start paying, or the platforms and trains are less congested because they stop riding.

Because the cost of real enforcement to stop fare evaders (meaning, vigilant enforcement at the faregate, ensuring that fines get paid, etc.) is not zero. The balance has to be that that cost is outweighed by the additional revenue from those who decide to pay instead of jumping the gate, plus the revenue from drawing additional riders to a system they perceive to be safer because the "criminals" are being kept out. I don't know where the inflection point is for that.

WMATA says they are about to start cracking down by issuing tickets to evaders, but that's only a deterrent if there is a will to pursue people to make sure those fines get paid.

that’s only true if you’re looking at MWATA as an entity that exists to turn a profit, which is the wrong way to look at public transport. it’s a public service that is partially offset by collections - to my knowledge, the metro has literally never been solvent without needing additional funding.

increasing enforcement for a few years, even at a loss, would at least put a dent in the “fare optional” culture of the metro

Technicality: it’s free to the kids, but Metro still gets paid. Kids Ride Free is a subsidy provided by the DC government—DC covers their fare. When the kids and teens don’t use their card, Metro isn’t getting money.

Ya thats why I usually walk, take bikeshare, or take a scooter if I'm going less than 2 stops.

Metro basically barred enforcement in the city after DC decriminalized fare evasion. Cops could no longer arrest fare evaders, just issue them a $50 citation, but WMATA argued they had no ability to actually issue a binding citation under the new scheme. Supposedly this has finally been resolved, with the DC government itself being the ones printing the citations and providing them to WMATA.

I am curious to see how this plays out. In the past, much of the controversy around enforcement of fare evasion was around things that happened when people refused to stop for police or resisted attempts to cite them. This led to some violent altercations and controversy over the level of force being used when the underlying offense was just not paying a $3.50 fare and for which the fine, before resisting arrest, etc, was only $100. People will undoubtedly refuse to comply with attempts to issue a citation, and what happens then? Do the police escalate and arrest for failure to comply when the underlying offense isn’t criminal? We’ll find out, and I imagine it won’t be without controversy.

I just don't think Metro should be fare-based, ideally. The public benefits to transit use are so high, and it's not the type of scarce good or service that you need to discourage overconsumption of.

There’s always a virtue signaling response like this. Yah then the system would be instantly overloaded and a expenses would shoot thru the roof. Private businesses/delivery ppl could subsidize certain transportation expenses onto the taxpayer. Congrats you just bankrupt the wmata

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Lolzzzz

Seems like it would be a lot easier for DC to just increase their payment to Metro based on the estimates ridership.

Fare evasion isn’t a problem as long as driving into and around DC isn’t tolled.

Depends where and when you are there. I see adults doing it all the time.

Most ridiculous I saw was an entire family, from toddlers up through the grandma.

My understanding is they can’t actually do that due to the structure of the compact between DC, VA, MD, and the Feds that created WMATA. If I understand it correctly, each jurisdiction’s funding is set by a formula, and they can’t unilaterally give more. As I understand it, that’s part of the rationale behind things like DC trying to give residents $100 in metro money: it’s a way to indirectly fund metro without violating the funding rules. That said, I’m repeating what I’ve read and been told by others; I haven’t actually read the compact to confirm this limitation is in it.

Drivers are the real fare evaders.

You clearly don't understand anything about how any of this works.

Hyperbole doesn't help your case, it's nowhere near half.

It's always like this when anything comes up about Metro at all. It's extremely frustrating.

Good question, with a complicated answer, but in truth the answer is that there's no good reason. For a myriad of reasons, public transit in DC (and everywhere) should be a public service run by the government and free for all users.

Yeah it seems like this subreddit somehow attracted all of the center right austerity consultants or something. Just such animosity towards the poor and underserved and an “I’ve got mine” mentality

A lot of people in here think that kids (who ride free anyway) jumping turnstiles is why there is a $146+ million budget shortfall. Y'all think there have been like 70 MILLION free rides!?

I welcome your expertise in United States mass transit systems that operate fare-free

Yes, squeezing an extra eight bucks out of those kids would definitely solve the $146 million budget shortfall

Imagine if DC's rail infrastructure was even remotely the size of NYC's, and similar to NYC, riders paid a flat rate to traverse the entire system. Weak excuse, IMO.

Driving is never cheaper than public transit, but the convenience and time saving is worth it for some people. The problem is how do you make public transit actually more convenient than cars.

I think that's a big part of it. I also think DC in general, and this subreddit in particular, draw in "law & order" types from both the right and center. And local news deciding to harp on it constantly of late doesn't help.

Citations Needed did a news brief episode on it recently that's a good listen: https://soundcloud.com/citationsneeded/news-brief-dc-medias-fare-evasion-meltdown

$1 flat fare for all rides all distances

What’s the deal with that $100/month subsidy council supposedly has passed?

This is getting into behavioral economics, so if longer trips are less subsidized and priced higher, you'd take one stop ride because it seems more worth it?

No I take one stop trips cause I need to go to that destination and it happens to be one stop away lol

As a DC resident, my instinct is that I'm not all that interested in paying $3 to go my 3 miles to work when my colleague rides an hour in from Reston for the same $3. My colleague is getting a very different level of service than I am for the same price.

Maybe I'd be interested if we also had a congestion tax on out-of-District cars. We could then use the revenue from that to subsidize the long-distance metro fares. But that idea is beyond WMATA's mandate.

I guess I'm in the minority but I actually think the current fare structure - where each pair of stations has its own cost - is fine. Not great, but not so terrible that it's worth all the hassle.

You're right, but I don't think that type of change is within the WMATA board's abilities.

I think you might have misread the point. I mean that your perception of fair price is affected by lower price of longer rides, even though it really doesn't change whether your current trip is worth the price or not

That is false. It costs me $10/day to go from Rockville to Cleveland park. Driving that distance does not cost $50/week, not even factoring in insurance, maintenance, and gas. I use the metro now because it’s ecologically better, not because it’s affordable. It really isn’t.

Why the qualification of "in United States"? When it comes to mass transit, and transportation in general, we should be looking to almost anywhere else than the US, because our governments at every level are owned by various corporations and business sectors that profit massively and directly from both car-focused transportation policies and the massive government subsidies, direct and indirect, that they receive through those policies.

In the US, the main places you will find free transit are university campuses. But there are a number of cities who offer varying amounts of free transit, from small buses that run through areas of heavy tourism and shopping, to citywide free buses. Cities in numerous cities worldwide offer free transit for part or all of their users, and quite successfully.

Your assertions in your reply are not based on anything except misconceptions and faulty assumptions. Any given system that relies on fare collection only expects those fares to cover roughly 10% of its budget. Eliminating those fares increases ridership significantly (which is a good thing), and is seen by many as a low-cost but high-impact way to reduce economic inequality.

>Private businesses/delivery ppl could subsidize certain transportation expenses onto the taxpayer.

As for this sentence, I don't know what it means. Businesses already put the expense of employee travel on the employees who have to buy and maintain cars, and the government which builds and maintains roads, etc. And I can't see delivery people ever significantly relying on trains and buses; even if we successfully ban private vehicles in part or all of the city, commercial delivery vehicles would still likely be allowed, and lots of deliveries in urban areas are made by bike and scooter bikes.

Fare free systems have challenges and would certainly take political capital to enact anywhere in the US. But the net benefits can be significant for business, residents, tourists, everyone. Given our climate crisis, governments should probably be paying and otherwise incentivizing everyone possible to take transit rather than private cars. Just saying you have a robust transportation network that's FREE has difficult to measure benefits for attracting both residents and businesses, which in turn grows the tax base to fund just such a system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_public_transport

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/02/free-public-transportation-is-a-reality-in-100-citiesheres-why.html

https://qz.com/2048165/american-cities-are-experimenting-with-free-public-transit

https://www.inverse.com/culture/free-public-transportation-scientific-studies

Yeah my commute is $7.50 a day on the metro, and when I estimate how much gas if I drive to work it comes out to about $3.50 a day. So, big difference actually. I take the metro most days though since it's much less stressful

I might be the only person not having a car in the city, but that must have not taken into account the cost of a car. Also is parking free for you?

Maybe? $40M is the current estimate. May be lower because kids ride free. May be higher because some wmata people worry that estimates for metro fare evasion are very low.

https://wjla.com/news/local/metro-fare-evasion-deter-wmata-washington-dc-train-free-pandemic-covid19-stations-gates-plans-campaign-silver-line-phase-two-barriers-criminal-crime-arrested-tickets-smartrip-credit-card

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Yes, parking is free at my work. And yeah, if I had bought a car to commute to work, it would be a lot more expensive, but I've had this car for several years (fully paid off) before I moved to the area

How much is parking for you?

Honestly it just shows the complete breakdown of economic model if metro isn't even strictly cheaper than cars on direct trips (not to mention the huge subsidies).

I'm not super-sure about how much DC could get from a program like that. The London congestion pricing program ends up increasing their transportation system's total funding by only ~3%. The various NYC proposals have all eventually been modeled around the same, I think. Cost to administer is roughly 25% of revenue brought in.

The money would obviously help, but only if it doesn't increase downstream costs like even lower office-worker spending downtown.

Now congestion pricing is good if your goal is to reduce traffic at peak times, but that's sort of a separate issue.

Why? Because the United States has very different laws and tax codes than other countries? You don’t understand why we can’t just copy/paste stuff from other countries here? Yes, there are some places in the us that have fare-free service, but to compare those to a multi-state transit system like wmata is simply disingenuous.

Oh yah, your sources are Wikipedia and news articles retrieved from Google, along with yet again more virtue signaling about why free public transit is great. Yes, I agree, in an ideal world we all take the metro/bus everywhere and no one needs cars. But how are you realistically gonna make that happen. I’ve live in Asia for over a year and trust me I’d love to have no car. But to just say ‘let’s have no fares transit’ is such a leap it just doesn’t make sense.

My example is literally just one thing I thought of off the top of my head. If you can’t see the potential pitfalls of having no fares in a the wmata idk what to say. Sure, no one can predict the future. Maybe a fare free metro is amazing and it works out perfect, or maybe it falls apart and is rife with safety, reliability, and corruption issues.

350mm a yr in fares is a lot to make up for. Plus, as you hope, when literally everyone is riding the metro that will increase costs. And you’re misrepresenting facts by saying ‘it only represents 10% of the budget’. It represents 78.3% of operating budget.

My workplace has parking. If it’s full, the zone 3 ticket would be prohibitive for sure. That brings up another factor: I have to leave before 7 AM or I’m not guaranteed to arrive on time via metro. The delays are way too unpredictable, so I need to leave time for those. Typically when I do drive it’s because I haven’t left by 7 and can’t trust I’d arrive by 8:15 due to unforeseen delays (this includes the walking parts, tbf).

This is why I have to remember not to write serious replies to trolls. Your use of the phrase "virtue signaling" alone means your opinion is discarded. Bye.

Right because Metro charges a certain amount depending on your start and ending destination lol

Lol your the one lying about the facts there buddy. Keep on with what makes you feel good about yourself you probably need it

If every single DC student rode Metro to and from school every school day and skipped every fare, it wouldn’t come even close to that number

If we can't do fare free (which I see a nightmare trying to get the state legislatures to fund that) or flat fares regardless of distance, I think a zone-based system is the next best alternative. Just not necessarily the ones showcased yesterday. I think five zones is still convoluted since you're trying to make it easier for not just residents but also business travelers and tourists to understand.

The more that I look at the three-zone plan the more that I like it with probably a few minor tweaks. (For example, I think King Street Station in Alexandria and East Falls Church should be in zone two with everything beyond those -- at least on Blue and Silver lines -- in zone 3 since they are transfer stations. I don't like the stops at Arlington Cemetery and Pentagon being zone 1 since if you were coming from Rosslyn you'd have to cross zone 1 just to get to office spaces at Crystal City in zone 2.)

I wish we could be having a different discussion about the Silver Line. Not that it's not open, not about express service, but rather just how long the entire line is from Ashburn to Largo. Wouldn't splitting that and only running Silver service into downtown D.C. be more efficient as far as train timing than a Silver Line Express? But I guess outside of Stadium-Armory there's not really another track to turn a train around on that corridor.

There have definitely been some pains throughout the past year(s), but I do appreciate Metro displaying these different ideas on how things could function in the future.

Don’t forget yearly maintenance, unseen maintenance, insurance. You can’t just calculate gas. That’s ridiculous.

Seriously. You can’t talk about raising prices when your service is substantially below the price you have now. Pathetic.

Well, I guess my logic is that I'd own the car whether or not I drove to work. I do agree that driving to work increases maintenance costs though, but it's hard to quantify. Would my $500 dollar fix to my engine last month have been necessary if I hadn't been driving to work two days a week like I was doing? Hard to say

Fair. I was operating under the assumption that you wouldn’t need the car. I mean 90% of trips people take in cars are to work or home from work so.

Yeah I've been really toying with the idea of getting rid of my car for your reasons haha

For the university population of over 70 thousand, data is from 2017, with a minimum fare of $2 and a maximum far of $6 over the course of the 180 day school year there's a possible loss of between $25 and $75 million.

Clearly this estimate is quite believable.

Look, as much as I’d like Metro to be free, the reality is if it were then it would become a mobile homeless shelter and platforms would become even more unsafe. There either needs to be some barrier to entry or Metro cars and platforms need to be heavily policed.

The US subsidizes the hell out of cars, you barely pay for the roads, gas taxes are extremely low among western nations, and annual vehicle fees are, in some states, an inspection, some a registration, etc, but they are rarely more than $50 a year per vehicle.

It also hurts that charging fares the way they do disincentivzes participation. Its harder to do, but as it is the marginal cost of adding people to most lines at most times is near zero given the train is already going to run and be maintained, and thus the added cost burden per added passenger is tiny up to capacity. IE, you want full trains, but not overcrowded trains.

Since the trains will always run, if there is a line that isn't regularly nearing capacity, then fares should be reduced to attract ridership up to that threshold. The problem is that seeing the macroeconomic effect of cheaper transit can take years or decades as areas served by cheaper fares are included to build denser and accommodate the demand for the cheaper transit. But it goes both ways - when the trains feel more expensive, slower, or less reliable than cars, people gradually stop taking the train. When they are cheaper, reliable, and fast people gradually ride the train more, and the city is built around it more. But all these effects take decades to measure.

Every kid rides free, which is why the conversation is silly. Do all the math you want, it adds up to $0 for Metro’s budget

What about university students then? They're students who don't ride free correct? Plus my point wasn't about kid's evading fares they already don't have to pay. I was pointing the monetary loss estimates are believable.

Delete all the addition you did for people under the age of 18. They all ride free.

“Let’s increase the fares :) wait why is everyone still jumping”

Done, mistake corrected. It's still clear a loss of $40 million in evaded fares is believable.

From an externalities perspective, that's way better though. We would be subsidizing reducing the largest amount of car miles and preventing more cars from driving into the city center during work days.

Would recommend! I got rid of mine two years ago. About 4 months before the pandemic hit. I pay $50 every 4-6 months for new tubes and tires. I’m riding a bike from 1993 that’s a fucking beast that I got on Craigslist for $100 three years back. I have a milk crate strapped to the back for carriage. When biking I notice incredible things, I feel healthy, my commute to work is half biking half metro rail. Metro is honestly the most expensive part. Wish they’d get their shit together.

Honestly. You don’t think about, but biking also saves you a lot of cash outside of the vehicle. You’re mucch Less likely to spend too much cash on eating out when you have to bike to wherever you want to eat. Gotta be conscious of how much you buy anywhere cause you gotta bike it home. Impulse buying drops significantly. At least it did for me.

Should fix fare evasion before increasing fares, otherwise it will make fare evasion worse and we will then need higher fares and so on and so forth

LOL! Teens and adults alike hop or step over the fare gates ALL the time. White or black it doesn't matter.

If I were king there'd be a $10/day additional tax on parking for more than 4 hours within 1/4mi (or perhaps 1/2mi) within a metro station in the urban core. Parking is way too cheap downtown vs other cities.

As a person born and raised here I honestly don't think the fares for the metro are too expensive as they are.

Frankly, even if it was a dollar flat fee the people that are currently hoping the pay gates would still do it. They aren't doing it because they are impoverished. They are doing it because they can. There is a certain thrill that comes from breaking the rules and that's what a number of these folks are going for.

Yeah I hear you there. Ok instead of expanding out the Silver Line take care of the problems the existing system has first. If people aren't able to get to and from where they need to go efficiently then that needs to have been addressed years ago.

Also, the issue of safety needed to be addressed years ago as well.

Then I’m gonna keep hiking my ass over the turnstiles

Exactly.

And a police officer on every Metro car and bus.

Preserving my life by driving my car is cheaper than a huge medical bill.

I'm googling this all the time hoping for an update!! I thought they were supposed to vote on it this month.

Cost waaaay more than 50/wk with a car payment.

Car payment is avoidable. Going to work is less avoidable.

Car congestion pricing.

Yep, and same with short (but essential) bud rides. Paying $2 for a 2-10 min bus ride is ridic!

Disabled people already get free metro rides

I honestly don't feel that it's an issue of affordability though.

Many of the same ones I see jumping or stepping over the fare gates have on designer clothing and name brand shoes. it's not an issue of poverty it's a matter of having the wrong priorities in place.

It takes money to get those things, a lot more than what it costs to ride the bus and the train.

Good point tear up the roads and don't contribute to its infrastructure costs just makes their money and go back home

Yeah, forget all that. I'd rather ride my bicycle. Which covers the bulk of anything I'm likely to do each week anyway.

Other than that I can ride with a friend or family member, Uber, bus or train.

I just wouldn't have much of a reason to have a car at all.

Maintenance costs and stress for you. Plus you still pay for insurance and gas as well.

That $500 you spent on your engine would pay for one of my bicycles or be half of what I paid for both of them. They are MINE. Now, I might have to replace an inner tube or even a tire here and there with an inner tube being less than $10.00 (I would save money if I did it myself as well).

I'm just thinking about the costs that come with a car and for ME it's just not worth it.

I'd rather contribute to gas for friends and save money for trips than to have my own car

Yeah, I got one bike in summer of 2020 ( when new ones that weren't expensive were scarce). And then got a folding bike a few months later.

Riding a bike has really changed my life. During the height of the Pandemic it was nice to not deal with the stress of being on a bus with crazy people. Not having to wait for the bus at all either. I just rode my bike just about wherever I wanted to go.

Then I started doing food delivery with my bike as well so being able to earn money with something I had already turned into an absolutely wonderful benefit to my life.

Think about it..buying a bicycle it's yours. There is no multi month payment on it. No insurance is necessary no gas just feed yourself and your good to go

I also love how it helps my stress levels as well. Before I had a bike I did a whole lot of walking but it makes getting groceries a lot easier as well as doing my laundry. All in all I am on my bicycle a whole lot and because I have two I can always choose which one I want to ride lol

Oh wow even the grandma? That's crazy but yeah might as well at that point so everyone isn't held up

This!

Hmm I'll go as high as a third

True

Exactly

> The problem is that seeing the macroeconomic effect of cheaper transit can take years or decades as areas served by cheaper fares are included to build denser and accommodate the demand for the cheaper transit.

I'll have to nitpick to say that 1. metro didn't open in last decade, 2. passenger trends are going down, not up, so the model is going in the opposite direction you argue it would, even when there were multiple programs to lower fares in the past decade 3. demand for housing has always been there. Developers don't wait for that demand to start. I'm sure you understand the real hurdle but it should be spelt out that these are due to poor land policy. Until that is fixed, Metrorail's economic model will not be viable.