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jisaacs1207 t1_iue1ino wrote

Reply to comment by Zucc_Boi_ in Ukraine says Iran’s help for Russia should push Israel out of neutral stance by Lahampsink

Imagine expecting a nation to do the right thing and push back against -as hard as they can- a country scaffolding the framework of WW3 (including horrendous human rights violations), and being allowed to keep your agency in politics.

One would think, as a Jew myself, that Israel would understand the consequences of not doing your utmost to shutdown this down.

They came for the Ukrainians, I didn’t do as much as I could as it’s not me.

They came for Europe, I didn’t do as much as I could as it’s not me.

They came for neighboring nations, I didn’t do as much as I could as it’s not me.

Now they are knocking on my goddamned door and there is no one that CAN do anything to help me.

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Zucc_Boi_ t1_iue20ll wrote

What are you on about? If Ukraine wants to be anti-Israel, they should not demand Israel's support and rail on it for allegedly not providing any (despite the abundance of evidence of Israel's support). Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Certainly they shouldn't tell Israel that it should stand on the right side of history and then proceed to stand on the wrong side of history themselves at the UN.

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CamelSpotting t1_iuevsvf wrote

Everyone is anti-israel except the US and Israel knows exactly what they're doing wrong. This isn't them taking something personally.

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jisaacs1207 t1_iue2rho wrote

Israel regularly votes against the countries feeding it, and often outright defies them. It is called political agency-an important notion in national sovereignty.

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Zucc_Boi_ t1_iue3lx9 wrote

I'm not aware of such instance. Can you provide an example?

If the resolution at hand was consistent with Ukraine's current policies or Ukraine's vote in favor was driven by any security or political needs, fine. But it is neither consistent with its policies, nor does it assist it in any way. The resolution was passed in the UNGA, not UNSC, making it symbolical; was sponsored by some of the most pro-Russia and anti-Ukraine nations; and finally is about denuclearization of a country Ukraine depends on for assistance, while Ukraine itself suffers greatly from its own forced denuclearization.

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phrostbyt t1_iuf279z wrote

as a Ukrainian Jew the UNGA vote really boggles my mind. i really want some reporter to ask Zelensky why they decided to vote against

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Zucc_Boi_ t1_iuf3tj9 wrote

Me too. I support Ukraine and will keep supporting it regardless but I think Zelensky personally has some deficiencies that may harm his otherwise noble cause.

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jisaacs1207 t1_iuf7hn9 wrote

It’s important to note that you are an American citizen living in the USA. I’m unsure if you are a dual citizen somehow as that is illegal in Ukraine, but claiming to be a Ukrainian Jew is misleading if you are a voting American citizen.

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phrostbyt t1_iufe54e wrote

OK Ukrainian-born jew if that makes you feel better?

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jisaacs1207 t1_iufg5rc wrote

So you’re an American Jew with Ukrainian heritage questioning the motives of a foreign leader. That hits differently than being a Ukrainian Jew questioning the motives of your leader while living in Ukraine- that is all I am saying.

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phrostbyt t1_iufgmdx wrote

I was born in Ukrainian SSR. I identity as a Ukrainian jew (I have other identities as well) I don't understand why you care anyway. Everyone is allowed to have an opinion. Scanning people's accounts is just strange behavior

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jisaacs1207 t1_iufjfnk wrote

Everyone can have an opinion on anything they want, some hold more weight than others based on their circumstances and backgrounds.

You misleading people to think you have more personal experience than you do, and trying to trigger empathy, then being upset about being called out isn’t uncommon behavior. It is the exact reason websites exist to quickly check people out, though.

It is also why post history exists on your profile.

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phrostbyt t1_iufknkq wrote

No it's just weird. i didn't post to elicit empathy, i posted to question Zelensky's decisions. if i wanted to be some kind of propaganda bot, i would just make a new account. and i do have personal experience. i was born there, i've lived there, i've been back there many times since. i still have family there. you're just being an asshole

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jisaacs1207 t1_iuflj8z wrote

Your right to an opinion doesn’t translate to a right to not have it put under fair scrutiny.

As someone who was bombed, and fled under gunfire in Kharkiv, excuse me for not taking what you say very seriously after being led to believe you were in similar circumstances.

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phrostbyt t1_iuflq6p wrote

i never said i was living in Ukraine. you're not living there either. my family fled as refugees, so did yours. just different circumstances

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jisaacs1207 t1_iuf7423 wrote

The best examples of openly defying the countries supporting them would be the ongoing strikes on Palestine.

I don’t want to involve that in the thread outside of saying that supporting nations are not enthused about everything going on, and are open about it.

Still:

At the end of the day, the Jewish people have seen this type of thing before and know the outcome very well.

Regardless of any votes, the aid isn’t for just Ukraine-that is narrow minded and very short-term-thinking. There is another unstable warmonger in Europe that is commuting genocide. We know how this goes!

We also know that Jews always end up on the menu eventually in these cases.

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Zucc_Boi_ t1_iuf8zqs wrote

So Israel hasn't actually voted against its allies?

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jisaacs1207 t1_iufb9u5 wrote

If you want to be pedantic, fine. Otherwise:

https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-698743/amp

https://www.axios.com/2022/02/27/us-protests-israel-refusal-condemn-russia-un

https://www.arabnews.com/node/2032486/amp

Israel failed to the toe the line of their supporters.

There are other examples of similar, but that is a fairly recent time.

Then, of course there is stuff like this:

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2002/apr/30/israel

To answer your question directly, other than outwardly defying and not supporting their supporters, it looks like you’re right about the voting.

My point, excluding the voting, stands however.

Both Israel and Ukraine rely on foreign powers, Israel for much longer than Ukraine. Both countries express their own agency in politics as is their right.

We are in the brink of a world war and genocide is being committed under our noses. “But they voted against us so…” shouldn’t even be on the table.

Especially not for cultures that have been the victim of genocide in the past. There were many reasons given to not become directly involved in ending the holocaust, and I’m glad empathy and rationality won out.

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Zucc_Boi_ t1_iugvxq0 wrote

>If you want to be pedantic, fine. Otherwise:

>https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-698743/amp

>https://www.axios.com/2022/02/27/us-protests-israel-refusal-condemn-russia-un

>https://www.arabnews.com/node/2032486/amp

>Israel failed to the toe the line of their supporters.

>There are other examples of similar, but that is a fairly recent time.

>Then, of course there is stuff like this:

You failed to address the fact that this (all are one case, not 3) was anticipated and coordinated with the US when Israel was seen as a potential mediator. As soon as mediation efforts broke down, Israel immediately switched to harshly criticizing Russia. But before any criticism, Israel was already providing Ukraine with humanitarian and material support.

Ukraine's decision, on the other hand, came as a surprise to everyone, and unlike Israel it did not abstain, but outright supported the resolution when the entire west didn't.

>Then, of course there is stuff like this:

>https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2002/apr/30/israel

How is that related to anything? Israel is defending itself, and so is Ukraine.

>My point, excluding the voting, stands however.

>Both Israel and Ukraine rely on foreign powers, Israel for much longer than Ukraine. Both countries express their own agency in politics as is their right.

>We are in the brink of a world war and genocide is being committed under our noses. “But they voted against us so…” shouldn’t even be on the table.

>Especially not for cultures that have been the victim of genocide in the past. There were many reasons given to not become directly involved in ending the holocaust, and I’m glad empathy and rationality won out.

Your point does not stand, because your only argument was proven to be false. Israel does not vote against its own allies, and does not go against them when it seeks their help, therefore Ukraine shouldn't antagonize its allies either. You can say it's just a vote, but it's also an expression of one's policies, and Ukraine is decidedly anti-Israel.

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John-Depth t1_iufk4le wrote

>Israel regularly votes against the countries feeding it

What countries does it vote against that are "feeding" it?

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jisaacs1207 t1_iufl1u2 wrote

Please check the comments a couple down-links included. Israel consistently defies nations that have been giving them billions in support and technology-both through abstaining or directly going against them.

This is fine. Israel is a sovereign nation and isn’t obliged to always follow demands, similar to Ukraine.

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John-Depth t1_iufubd9 wrote

>This is fine. Israel is a sovereign nation and isn’t obliged to always follow demands, similar to Ukraine.

I don't think it's comparable. As you already acknowledged, Israel does not vote against countries that support it. By "Straight up defies", it seems like you mean to say "did not do everything the said state wanted them to do", or simply abstained from a UN vote. Perhaps, it's even less of a deal then voting against a state in the UN.

A more apt comparison to Ukraine would be if Israel would consistently vote against a state while demanding it should get military support from it. or on the inverse, if Ukraine refused to vote as Israel says in a specific resolution because it goes against their interest. This is not the case.

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jisaacs1207 t1_iufzrlk wrote

Abstaining is voting against, by way of … well, how voting works in this situation. Furthermore, Israel consistently does exactly what it’s supporting nations asks it to not do regarding how the conflict with its neighbors is being handled.

Both Ukraine and Israel are nations that are being propped up, Israel having been for a very long time. The reason for this is that both nations have very unfriendly neighbors that would sooner absorb their territory and that dismisses their sovereignty.

The big difference here is that the Israel has much more experience, are more mature in their existence, have been propped up long enough to build a defense network, and understands the stakes. Jews know, intimately, the result of madmen annexing their neighbors with genocidal intent.

Aid with the intent of immediately ending what is, again, cultivating should not being contingent on anything. I would not deny my neighbor water if their house was on fire, even if their vote against my interest. Doing so is just not Jewish culture. Pragmatism alone would warn that fires spread.

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IsraeliDonut t1_iufzs98 wrote

Which votes are you talking about?

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jisaacs1207 t1_iug014n wrote

Please check the comments further down.

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IsraeliDonut t1_iug7sj0 wrote

You can just tell me a few

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jisaacs1207 t1_iugbh65 wrote

Would abstaining on the condemnation of Russia’s invasion during its initial stages, despite being urged to by their supporters, work for you? That is the most recent I can think of offhand.

Please don’t argue that abstaining is not the same as voting against. You asked when they voted against their supporting nations, and the choice to abstain worked directly against the condemnations.

https://www.axios.com/2022/02/27/us-protests-israel-refusal-condemn-russia-un

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IsraeliDonut t1_iugbr1o wrote

Sure, but Russia doesn’t really feed Israel

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jisaacs1207 t1_iugfqzy wrote

No, but the US is one of the nations that does. Israel’s defiance towards the US is my point. It seems like we are miscommunicating.

Israel voted against a country that props it up. Ukraine is requesting aid from a country it voted against. Both are perfectly fine, and a good thing. The purpose of voting, or abstaining, is an expression of national interest.

Humanitarian aid and defense should not be a tool of extortion to levy fealty-especially not in the case of attempted genocide.

The topic of genocide is and should be sensitive to the Jewish people, and we should be exceptionally forceful in preventing it at all costs. It really doesn’t matter who the victim is, there should be no greater advocate for the victims of attempted genocide. This is a “no expense spared,” type of situation.

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IsraeliDonut t1_iugfybu wrote

Ok, But you said they voted against the hand that feeds them

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jisaacs1207 t1_iuggamk wrote

Oh, I see the problem-it’s linguistic. By, “voted against,” I mean they, “voted against the will of.”

By abstaining, they voted against the will of the United States, one of their main contributors.

I see you thought I meant they condemned Russia, which they didn’t do back in February. Israel chose to remain neutral, not condemn the invasion, and irked their western supporters.

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IsraeliDonut t1_iufzhex wrote

What human rights violations?

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jisaacs1207 t1_iug0nk3 wrote

Russia is attempting genocide, in several forms. It is castrating, raping, and murdering men, women, and children. It is stealing children, it is creating a famine… the list goes on. I mean, the reports are pretty public at this point as are videos.

I really hope you’re not arguing about the substance of all this evidence.

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[deleted] t1_iuf4bai wrote

[removed]

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idontagreewitu t1_iugrnf0 wrote

> This article makes no mention of that.

Probably because if it did, then it wouldn't make Ukraine seem more pathetic and needing of help, and make Israel look like a bad guy when everyone should be helping Ukraine.

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