Need a quality winter coat/jacket

Submitted by ZlatkoPlaySk t3_xuu8ov in BuyItForLife

Hi guys, I’m looking to buy a winter jacket or parka (don’t really know what you call em) . I have a low quality 50€ jacket and it’s terrible , I sweat in it too much , very thick , terrible looking (in terms of fashion) and is starting to tear. Could anyone recommend me any brands or straight up jackets that are good? My budget is around 200-250€, if the difference would be big enough i would max pay 300€. I’m from Europe. Thanks for your help ❤️

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TweedleBeetleBattle2 t1_iqxoq2x wrote

Patagonia sells both new and great condition used coats online. Worth every penny. I am naturally almost always cold and my jacket really helps. Wind proof, which so many aren’t imo.

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PopeOfManwichVillage t1_iqy3p70 wrote

Not to mention the warranty, which is absolutely unbeatable

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F-21 t1_ir4a3un wrote

Not sure if the warranty is as great as it's sometimes said, especially in recent times. But the products are generally great and made very transparently.

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PopeOfManwichVillage t1_ir5imbm wrote

I bought a bag from them and when the water resistant coating started peeling off the interior, they just gave me a new one. I had owned the bag for over 10 years. They also repaired a zipper on my wife’s 5 year old jacket at no charge. Sounds pretty damn good to me.

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esleydobemos t1_iqy9nhp wrote

Came here to say this. I have a Pat corduroy barn coat that is about 15 years old, now. It is my favorite winter coat. It was about $150 US new. I got mine at half price as it was "last year's model". Pat stuff is well made and worth the extra money.

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ZlatkoPlaySk OP t1_iqxqwfe wrote

Yeah Patagonia have some jackets that interest me but I don’t really know which one would suit my needs

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FionaTheFierce t1_iqynhnz wrote

They have some coats that are layered - like waterproof outer shell and inner insulated (down) You can wear each piece separately and put them together for one coat.

Off season they can be found at 50% off - not sure about now. They are more than $350 though.

But even their regular down coats are amazing. Be sure to check their sale section.

North Face, LL Bean, and Lands End also have high quality warm coats - not sure of their availability in Europe.

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audmrod t1_iqyx8w8 wrote

You know the name of that Patagonia jacket you speak of? I poked around on their website but I cannot find it.

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instacandywhut t1_iqz3us6 wrote

It might be the tres 3-in-1 which I recently purchased. Not cheap but it was 50% off during sale.

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hakkai67 t1_ir1f4j1 wrote

>Patagonia

I want one but they are now 650$ in my country.

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smashey t1_iqxruyu wrote

Bigger and puffer the better. May be a bit more expensive in EU though.

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UvxyI t1_ir15r2e wrote

I have had a dark grey “silent down” Patagonia jacket for 4 years now, has held up very well and covers the worst of midwest weather.

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lazylittlelady t1_iqxgrpw wrote

Have you tried hitting up vintage stores and/or sites? An older wool or camel coat in good condition is probably a superior construction if you can find your size/color. Always check the tags for details on construction and make sure it fits with your bulkiest sweater.

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ZlatkoPlaySk OP t1_iqxhny9 wrote

No , not really I try but I doubt I’ll find anything in my city , I’m Slovakia there aren’t many vintage stores, will check online tho thnx ❤️

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c_alias t1_iqy8zdz wrote

In my opinion, the Jackson Glacier Parka is the best for the money and covers a wide variety of winter conditions. The Down Drift Parka or Jacket are excellent too.

Edit: meant to comment this further down in relation to the Patagonia recommendation. These are all Patagonia products.

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Lensmaster75 t1_iqyikqu wrote

Look for army navy stores online and get a wool pea coat. And if you need something for really cold they have artic gear.

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TisTheWindAndNothing t1_iqxk8zo wrote

In US, Columbia makes great winter gear at a price much lower than the top brands. I wear a Merrel shell that I've had for 10+ winters.

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ZlatkoPlaySk OP t1_iqxkkba wrote

Will defo check out Columbia , I’ve thought about Columbia and TNF , thanks ❤️

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betancourtb t1_iqxne8d wrote

I moved to Finland and believe me, do check Columbia!!!! My Columbia jacket is the best! In their website you can choose jackets based on how warm you want it to be.

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Ihaveamazingdreams t1_iqxo8cd wrote

I just got a down coat with the omni-heat lining for less than half price. It's was on clearance from last year. It's really nice.

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jstwnnaupvte t1_iqyjdrr wrote

I bought one of the 3 in 1’s last month & I’m almost looking forward to winter so I can wear it!
My sister has had a Columbia for ten years, so it felt like a quality purchase, plus the versatility of this one was a selling point for me.

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TisTheWindAndNothing t1_iqylyt1 wrote

I wear just the shell and my own sweater

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jstwnnaupvte t1_iqz00gw wrote

It gets very cold here in the winter, so I will definitely be utilizing the insulating layer, but I did already pop on the shell during a rainy day & was very pleased!

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michmemuch t1_iqxvjdn wrote

I have had the same Columbia winter gear for 20+ years. Has held up better than a Land's End coat, but since that had a lifetime warranty I took it back to the store and got a broken zipper replaced. I have also heard good things about L.L. Bean, but I am not sure what you have access to.

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Apex-GER t1_iqxh4bk wrote

I'd take a look at some sport brands. Patagonia (if there's a sale), CMP or maybe meru. They have very functional jackets that can fit a casual fashion style... If you want it more elegant I'd take a look at some classic coats - they're fancy and can hold warm with a scarf

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Oshebekdujeksk t1_iqxqc6f wrote

Patagonia also has a stellar repair program from what I understand. They seem to walk the walk more than most companies and their gear is top notch. Never had a problem with anything I’ve gotten from them and it’s all still in use.

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ZlatkoPlaySk OP t1_iqxhz36 wrote

Tbh I don’t really care about fashion, I’d would rather have function. Something that I won’t sweat in after 5m of running lol . I just need something that will be good enough for casual daily use and once a year skiing. Thanks ❤️

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im_just_thinking t1_iqxn9c6 wrote

So wait you need a winter running jacket? Because that's pretty important to distinguish that. A snowboarding jacket of sorts might be something you want

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Apex-GER t1_iqzyxzz wrote

Then definitely Patagonia and CMP from the sporting side, maybe also take a look at some of the hiking/"tactical" brands like Carinthia, UF Pro or Tatonka/Tasmanian Tiger those have some very functional jackets, too

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TSIDAFOE t1_iqxny4z wrote

As someone who lives in a very cold climate (Wisconsin) it all comes down to how cold you expect it to get, and how long you expect to be spending outside.

If you're looking for the warmest possible jacket for the coldest possible temperatures, I would recommend the Alpha Industries N3-B Parka. This thing is a BEAST. It's gotten me through temperatures as low as -20F, and has the somewhat rare quality of being slim-fit enough that you don't look like Ralphie from A Christmas Story.

Some might balk at the $250 price tag, but having worn it for a year, I can safely say that it's worth every penny.

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DEMDOGGaming t1_iqy9lot wrote

Another cold climate user here, MN. Usually stick to snowmobile jackets, wouldn't put them in the same sentence as fashion, but they are warm and durable, I'm talking like hitting bits of brush at 50mph durable, and sub zero F with high wind chills for extended periods warm

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throwaway82649229 t1_iqykaxo wrote

Snowmobile jackets are next level. Lots of experience in Northern Michigan snowmobiling, the jackets are extremely warm.

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ZlatkoPlaySk OP t1_irftcbn wrote

Yeah I’ve been recommended a lot of alpha industries stuff I think I will go check out their stuff, in a shop I have here on my city . Thanks ❤️

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AtlasLeathercraft t1_iqxoooc wrote

barbour waxed jacket

Great designs, awesome construction, surprised noones mentioned them yet. They also do other styles of jackets but the waxed canvas jackets look better with age. Hope you find something!

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ZlatkoPlaySk OP t1_iqxqq30 wrote

Looks great will defo check some stuff on their site, thanks ❤️

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Seelate57 t1_iqy3qsa wrote

As much as I love Barbour jackets, Barbour waxed jackets are NOT winter coats. You will freeze if you wear these outside sub 50 degree weather. Unless you're wearing a sweater or a zip in liner, these are primarily for fall and spring temperatures and built for rain. I'd advise against getting a waxed jacket if you're looking for a "winter" jacket. Since you said you're looking at a parka I'm assuming cold and snowy weather is what you're looking to get a jacket for.

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AtlasLeathercraft t1_iqzc7rz wrote

Fair call :) they do parkas and quilted jackets too, imagine build quality the same Doesn't get too cold here in Sydney to be honest haha

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diab0lus t1_iqzicwl wrote

I have one with a faux fur zip-in liner and I use it in winter in Pennsylvania. I wouldn’t wear it much below -20F, but it doesn’t often get that cold here. The collar flips up and reveals a strap with a snap that goes across neck to help keep cold air out. This is nice on cold windy days. It works with a scarf too. In my opinion the biggest issue in really cold weather is my arms will be cooler than my torso because the liner doesn’t go down the arms.

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diab0lus t1_iqzhpmm wrote

If you go this route, make sure you get the faux-fur zip-in liner. Mine keeps me warm in negative temperatures, and with the liner out I can wear it year round. They sell the hood separately (storm hood), and they offer alteration and rewaxing services. They will indefinitely service the coat and fix whatever is needed. Some people have been wearing the same coat for 20 years with only a few original panels remaining.

I think it’s kind of expensive though, even considering the build quality, which has been criticized by some as not being as durable expected. Specifically, the seams on the hand warmer pockets tend to rip (I had this problem and attributed it to my longer arms hanging on the seams, but others have reported this problem too). I have used their alteration and rewaxing service, so let me know if you have any questions.

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Trebeliant t1_iqxjoet wrote

I can recommend m-65 from Alpha Industries. Own two (black and green with liner) and I'm very happy.

https://www.alphaindustries.eu/se/m-65-2901?number=

https://www.alphaindustries.eu/se/als-liner-2905

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generaalalcazar t1_iqxlmfz wrote

Second this. I own an alpha industries jacket they made with gloverall. It is perfect and outperforms several more expensive jackets.

Come to think of it, gloverall has a surplus department on their website. Great quality, buy it for life jackets with enormous discounts. Pound has fallen so.

If that is not your taste I also recommend Schott Nyc.

Good luck and all the best to You.

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ZlatkoPlaySk OP t1_iqxkor8 wrote

Thanks for the suggestion. Looking for something more sporty that I could also wear when I go skiing. Thanks ❤️

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lardcore t1_iqxq4nu wrote

Depends on the kind of skiing you do. If you're talking cross-country skiing then it's a lot smarter to get a separate jacket for that because you have opposite requirements for standing around/walking and something as energetic as xc skiing.

If you're talking about downhill skiing you can do that in M65 no problem. I've used an M65 with a liner for snowboarding at -30C without any issues. It's heavier than snowboarding jackets and doesn't have a snow -skirt but other than that it was great.

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ZlatkoPlaySk OP t1_iqxqit6 wrote

Okay , I have an Alpha industries shop 15 minutes away from my area I’ll check out they’re shop a see the jacket in person , thanks very much ❤️

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religioniscancer8 t1_ir25tw8 wrote

which brand of M65 do you have, please?

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lardcore t1_ir26nw2 wrote

No clue, friend - it was a genuine US Army issue given to me by a friend, not sure who made it.

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MSotallyTober t1_iqy8tss wrote

Best jacket I ever bought was Filson’s Mackinaw Wool Cruiser. I’ve had it for about eight years and it’s been to many countries with me. Always looks good with a pair of jeans. It’s one of the few Filson products that are still made in the US. However, they’re above the budget you’re looking for — but you can always find them for sale used and in excellent condition from other sources at around the price in your budget. Go a size down from what you normally wear and that’d be a good fit.

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CrosstheRubicon_ t1_iqymtjq wrote

Is the jacket that warm?

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Bcruz75 t1_ir23rfy wrote

It's very warm. If you think about a pea coat, you essentially have two layers in front across your torso due to the overlapping. You do however lose heat because there's not a zipper to truly seal up the coat. Wear a warm sweater underneath and you're good into the 20's F.

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MSotallyTober t1_iqyna9z wrote

Absolutely — keeping warm even when wet.

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CrosstheRubicon_ t1_iqynr5q wrote

I’ve always wanted one, but I didn’t realize they were that warm. Guess I’ll have to get one!

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MSotallyTober t1_iqyo3bn wrote

A decent foray into wool would probably be a naval pea coat. I’m sure you can find them at a local army surplus for an inexpensive price brand new. That was my first wool coat when I moved to the east coast from the west coast some fifteen years ago.

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Bcruz75 t1_iqyb59o wrote

I would second that except they want to ski in it. I have a Filson pea coat that I love for warmth and style.

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ekkelly0 t1_iqy9ds2 wrote

I love my fjallraven jacket it's ridiculously warm and somewhat water resistant! It may be a little pricier than you were looking to spend but it is such an amazing investment. I've convinced two of my friends to buy them as well and they're just as happy with the men's style.

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porchprovider t1_iqxyu0n wrote

686 Smarty, Helly Hansen, Arc’teryx, Burton AK. Don’t buy used and wash in special waterproof detergent.

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diskebbin t1_iqylwr5 wrote

Caught an Eddie Bauer parka on sale and I’m never cold. It’s wonderful!

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teksun42 t1_iqxqymj wrote

Leather lasts a long time. I have one that I've been wearing for 40 years. The liner is failing but it's still going strong.

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sanstime t1_iqy9has wrote

I just got a jacket from Helly Hansen direct on clearance. Very happy with it.

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ZlatkoPlaySk OP t1_irftqt0 wrote

I have a friend with a helly Hansen jacket, will check em out , thanks ❤️

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lifeisnothingbutexam t1_iqyn8vm wrote

I live in chicago, and after trying many different jackets I concluded to wear 2 winter jackets. Never turned back ever since.

"Inside" in like those typical puffy down jacket amd "outside" is more of typical ski jacket (1 size bigger) with sleeve and waiste band from getting snow on (to lock out wind). Never felt more confident waiting for bus on long cold winter nights.

My wife thought this was ridiculous, until she tried it, and couldn't stop. *in all seriousness, try it. Does it sound ridiculous? Maybe. Does it look weird? Not at all. It looks normal and really can't tell.

Edit:Lol nvm, I missed that "sweating part of yours.

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TSIDAFOE t1_irh7uii wrote

As a WI native, I second this.

When you finally find a jacket warm enough to survive the winter without dressing in absurd amounts of layers, you quickly realize that "warm enough to survive -20" also means "warm enough that stepping inside a building will give you heat stroke".

My two coats of choice are either: A Jachs shirt jacket that I bought from Costco for temps between 60-40f, that I'll wear with a hoodie underneath for temperatures down to freezing, and an Alpha Industries N3-B that I wear in "fuck around and find out" temperatures.

Crucially, you can also go the other direction as well. I've worn my N3-B in 30 degree temperatures with nothing but a t-shirt underneath and felt not the slightest bit cold.

It irks me when I see advice in threads like this that are like "just thrift clothing and add more layers!". Layers can be good in specific use-cases, but if going outside involves putting of four layers, you're doing something wrong IMO.

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Bcruz75 t1_ir25rhp wrote

Nothing weird about this in the least. Most technical jackets are built to layer because you can shed layers as you warm up. That's what the cool kids do.

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HipshakeGhost t1_iqz3kg0 wrote

Filson lightweight vest ( underneath ) $80-120

Patagonia parka / coat ( or really anything suggested above )

The Filson lightweight vest underneath my winter coat has been an absolute game changer and I live in a very cold climate. Good luck my friend!

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IKnowImRamblingBut t1_iqxoenw wrote

If you can find a RAB jacket for a good price, they're great.

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Fl4shy_ t1_iqxyezh wrote

If you want something that's actually insane quality look into Loyal Stricklin.

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modernhob0 t1_iqy5ljy wrote

Absolute BIFL underdog: Cumulus. They produce in Poland as ethically fair and environmentally sustainable as possible.

I own(ed) Woolrich, Canada Goose etc., but none of those get as much worn as my Cumulus incredilote endurance (309€).

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TheFlaccidKnife t1_iqy6u3c wrote

Belstaff waxed cotton will last you the rest of your life. European cut.

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Kresterz t1_iqybjl1 wrote

This isn’t going to be warm enough in the deep winter

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TheFlaccidKnife t1_iqz7ki6 wrote

Sure it will. Waxed cotton is impermeable to wind, similar to leather. Cant go wrong with a cotton trialmaster, (unless you're short, don't wear long jackets if you're short) and they wear in beautifully.

You could check out their leather or shearling options if you want. The Tundra or Axis should be very warm. The prices on those are kinda very high though.

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Kresterz t1_ir1ednb wrote

Buddy I think we're talking -10 to 0 degrees celsius out here

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Bcruz75 t1_iqyckrz wrote

Look no further, I have the answer. Move to Colorado. You can wear a ski coat/technical shell and hiking boots to a wedding or a funeral.

In all seriousness, the only recommendations I could make are $1000 Arcteryx or Norrona Oslo coats.

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Gandalf-108 t1_iqzgt97 wrote

Norrona. Expensive, but truly Buy it For Life. The Trollveggen goretex jacket is the most expensive piece of clothing I own, but I will have it for 20+ years to come

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diamondd-ddogs t1_iqyfjvy wrote

cant go wrong with military surplus wool, looks good, durable and cheap

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JordanTheHawk t1_iqyfshd wrote

The ultimate winter coat I've found is the king of the mountain wool jackets, fricken incredible

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busterindespair t1_iqypds0 wrote

How cold does it get in your area?

Last year I bought a Colombia omni-heat coat and I do love it. I also got them for my kids. I can't attest yet to how it holds up over time but it's definitely warm!

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ZlatkoPlaySk OP t1_irfuidh wrote

Well winter is under 0*C

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busterindespair t1_irgh9sq wrote

It's below 0C for many weeks here. Often below 0F for at least a week. So far my Omniheat Columbia is the best coat I've owned.

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qinetics t1_iqysgwc wrote

Honestly I bought a down jacket from uniqlo for $100 on sale in a rush and its my third year now!

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rottentomati t1_iqysup9 wrote

I really like SuperDry’s premium down jackets. They feel quality.

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MalagrugrousPatroon t1_iqysytj wrote

I have a Sterlingwear of Boston pea coat which has lasted me over 20 years and counting. I believe I have the Navigator in black, which is 24 oz 100% wool. It's wind proof, warm, and basically water proof. I've been in the rain with it a ton and it never seeps. I have a new puffer jacket I love, but it doesn't resist water nearly as well and runs a little hotter because it's not a breathable.

The only pea coat I've found which compares is the Schott in, I think, style 782USA, but it's about twice as much, but it could be the less expensive style 740. Both are 32 oz wool. The Sterlingwear Classic is in 32 oz too.

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techCholly t1_iqz6xjs wrote

I love my Navigator. The only issue is that it is too warm so I don’t get to wear it nearly as much as I’d like.

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anothersip t1_iqz5hpv wrote

If you have any outlet malls near you, check out Express. I found a winter coat (retailed $850) and it was like 85% off. Has lasted me years, and will continue to keep me warm for many more. I second Patagonia too, though.

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apodyopsis2 t1_iqz794j wrote

Try Uniqlo. They make a super lightweight, puffer jacket that’s as warm as anything I’ve ever owned, and the price is excellent.

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waterjug82 t1_iqze6je wrote

Idk if it’s just a midwestern American thing but I have a ~really~ nice carhart coat. Everyone around me does. And always has. It’s water proof, as a specific insulation/temperature rating, durable and made super well. It has little slots around the shoulders to allow for extra arm movement while working so the sleeves don’t ride up in the cold if you’re like swinging a hammer or something. It’s overall just the greatest. I got it on sale for under 100 usd this was pre Covid tho. Prolly over 100usd now for a good carhart

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AegorBlake t1_iqzggit wrote

I'd recommend a very durable shell and then 1 or more types of liner. I used to have a North Face one. It held up pretty well. The reason I say used to is because I lost it, but still best coat I ever had and very versatile because of the liner.

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some_guy_cooking t1_iqzung7 wrote

A genuine U.S. Navy peacoat, preferably from the 1970s or earlier.

I can't post a direct link per subreddit rules, but there are plenty of U.S. Navy-issue peacoats on Ebay. This article talks about how to identify them so you can make sure you're getting the real thing.

32-oz Melton wool, very warm, durable, timelessly stylish, and affordable. You can pick one up for under 100€. I have one from the early 1960s and it's probably the best-made coat I own.

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gedcarroll t1_ir000sq wrote

How cold does it get where you live? How wet does it get? I live in the UK where we dont get much snow. I use a goretex shell and a polartec fleece, if it gets really cold I use a down jacket inside the goretex shell instead of a fleece. Like others have said I would recommend Patagonia, though it can be harder to get in some European countries. Another brand would be Arc'teryx as they provide a great service repairing older jackets. My current set of goretex shells: I have one from Arc'teryx (with more of an tighter fit which I use with thinner fleece mid layers and one from Nike's ACG range which has been surprisingly good (and can fit my down jacket mid layer underneath). I mostly use north face fleece jackets as a mid layer and use a Mammut down jacket as a mid layer when things get cold.

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ZlatkoPlaySk OP t1_irfwf32 wrote

Defo under 0 degrees Celsius in the winter when it’s windy I feel cold air getting through my zip

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Gousie_ t1_ir09n33 wrote

Patagonia is my go to especially now with their new business plan of donating basically all of their profit to sustaining earth.

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ElectricGeometry t1_ir0ewgx wrote

I'm going to take a different direction here and say that if you're sweating in your coat, you might be more interested in layers that fit well together. For example a nice mid layer vest that goes under a good shell jacket. That way you've got some temperature variability.

Also if you're paying in Euro you (probably) don't live somewhere that gets TOO cold. Versatility may be more important than being warm in - 50 celsius.

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ZlatkoPlaySk OP t1_irfx3ro wrote

It gets under 0 degrees Celsius

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ElectricGeometry t1_irgcj52 wrote

Everyone has a different range for cold. I grew up in -50 celsius, so below zero I think offers more options... But that's me!

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Present_Employ_6004 t1_ir0oa5q wrote

As a sailor, i have to recommend brands like Sail Racing, Slam, Musto, Helly Hansen and Zhik.

They all make jackets for casual wearing, while using the absolute best materials on the market.

We're talking windproof, waterproof and breathable jackets which will keep you warm and dry even though they might seem like they're thin.

Some of them might be on the pricier side (especially Sail Racing) but it's absolutely worth it.

I've been wearing the same Slam jacket for the past 6 years and its still good as new. My dad has had a Helly Hansen jacket for nearly 20 years until it finally gave out. Since then, he got himself a Zhik jacket and has been wearing it daily for 7 years now.

Now you just gotta find a store in your country that specializes in sailing equipment lol.

Other than that, Napapijri is a great option since I've got one of their jackets too and I'm quite happy with it!

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CMo42 t1_ir23laj wrote

I have had good luck with Carhartt coats if you can get them in your region. Very sturdy and easy to clean or waterproof.

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geordiedog t1_ir522u2 wrote

Cold climate here..Winnipeg Canada…typically -45c with the wind. It’s all about layers. I typically wear a base layer mid layer then a coat. Cover your head to keep your feet warm!

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TehAlternativeMe t1_ir8ih7q wrote

I'd look at Arc'teryx atom. I wear my atom LT around NYC until it hits freezing, then I'll switch to the thorium ar (which I got from the Arc'teryx repair shop for like $200). Below 15 or 20 Fahrenheit I've got a rab neutrino pro that comes out (which I also got used for $200 if I remember correctly)

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stepkurniawan t1_irfqmpt wrote

I’m currently very satisfied with ELVINE brand…their jacket is made to last, with sustainability in mind.

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Broodrooster99 t1_iqxn3eo wrote

Check out Revolution Race

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ZlatkoPlaySk OP t1_iqxrgru wrote

Checked them out they have som pretty good stuff, I can’t pick between them and Columbia 😩

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Fantastic-Alps4335 t1_iqy5xll wrote

Out door adventures or for office or around town. Different brands focus on different tasks.

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ZlatkoPlaySk OP t1_irfuct6 wrote

Around town , out door adventures too I like going hiking and maybe something that will be ok in light skiing

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chestervscheeto t1_iqzmbqq wrote

Pendleton coats/jackets with 3M Thinsulate. I thrifted one a while back and it is great during winter months.

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AsterBlomsterMonster t1_irmc6bk wrote

Layers are the real key. Light t-shirt, sweater/blouse, fleece, then winter coat. I like 3-in-1s but I just got a knee-length puffer last year and love how warm it keeps me by covering my butt and legs!

As far as brands, Google winter gear brands and nearly all of them are solid. Columbia, Patagonia, REI, Arteryx, LL Bean, Marmot, Sorel, Kamik, and Canada Goose. I've used all of these over the years except Canada Goose because I can't afford that.

Columbia is my favorite smfh I go back to it often. My favorite fleece, coat, and winter hiking boots are so Columbia. North Face is popular and good, but my Columbia fleeces seem to last a little longer and be a little warmer. Maybe it's just me but it seems like Mountain Hard Wear has gone down hill in quality lately too.

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