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The_Most_Superb t1_jdxirg7 wrote

Reply to comment by bigapewhat089 in The Greenland Ice Sheet is close to a melting point of no return by Vucea

If someone was handing out cigarettes at a preschool, would you blame the kids for dying of cancer? The blame lies on the shoulders on the government for letting it take place.

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juntareich t1_jdxvwe8 wrote

You’re comparing grown adults who make their own decisions to preschool children? Do you realize how weak of an argument that is?

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clickster t1_jdyo6s9 wrote

To make you own decisions, you need agency. Most people have very limited agency. Most don't get to choose where or how their food is grown, how or where their energy needs are met, many have only limited control over where they live (a function of work / cost), how infrastructure they rely upon is created, how the industries they rely upon are regulated and supplied etc etc... the big moving parts in civilisation are controlled by a handful of entities; not "the people".

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juntareich t1_je0bn92 wrote

One of the major challenges is that people misuse the agency they do have. People value their own wants, comfort and convenience above all. Your statement ignores the fact that everyone could give up beef tomorrow. That no one needs to fly across the world or drive across the country for leisure. People make the choices that benefit them the most, rich and poor, seventh generation be damned.

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mascachopo t1_jdy38k8 wrote

As grown adults we live in a society that has been and keeps being designed to extract every cent from us as consumers. Many people will behave like your idyllic thoughts suggest but in reality most of us are just a product of constant market manipulation.

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rokenroleg t1_jdy68sb wrote

I've seen most adults, I think it's a fair take.

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agent_wolfe t1_jdywtpg wrote

You’ve seen “most” adults…? How long did that take?

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The_Most_Superb t1_jdygd3p wrote

Your right, that analogy isn’t right. When comparing the average knowledge of an average adult to the subject matter experts of billion dollar corporations and the thousands of careers dedicated to climate research I should have said: would you blame a bunch of amebas for getting squished by oil tycoon’s boot? Blaming individual consumers for entire systems planned, created, and executed by corporations is ridiculous. “If you alone gave up red meat you could counter act the Exxon Valdeez! Or maybe if you don’t buy things from Amazon, you’ll save the polar bears!” The big polluters won’t stop unless regulations step in to make them stop. The government is in control of the regulations that make up the market that these companies operate in. The government could end subsidies for factory farming meat, and oil and gas, but they don’t. They see these companies giving out cigarettes at preschools and look the other way.

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juntareich t1_je0b1jq wrote

Yes, the system and those who create and maintain it bear heavy responsibility; so do the consumers who continue to make choices that exacerbate the problems.

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bigapewhat089 t1_jdxj3zh wrote

I would blame the parents. I don't rely on the government to tell me right from wrong.

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The_Most_Superb t1_jdydskl wrote

The parents are part the government in that analogy! Your original comment blames the kids for not turning down the cigarettes. My point is that it is a failure of the system for allowing it to happen in the first place. Also just to be clear, the cigarettes are pollution and the kids are individual citizens. We need to regulate the companies causing the pollution. Blaming the individual consumer is exactly what polluters want you to do to distract you from their enormous contribution to destroying the planet.

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bigapewhat089 t1_jdz6nn3 wrote

So you want the government to tell people what they can and cannot buy. Great idea, go to North Korea. Also it's not like we were aware of this from the start, and once the ball starts rolling you can't just stop it. There is way too much going on here than. "Let's stop using oil" it's not that simple we don't want a total economic collapse, we will cease to exist that way too. Why do you think Biden opened up more oil fields after promising to close them in the states.

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The_Most_Superb t1_je01pko wrote

So you’ve never heard of the EPA or FDA? They’re the only reason companies in the US are held to any sort of standard. Companies don’t care about harming the public, they only care if they keep buying their product. I never said it was just about not using fossil fuels. Let’s look at recycling for instance, a great way to individually contribute, except the majority of what you put in recycling never gets recycled. It either goes to a landfill here or gets shipped to another country and dumped in the ocean. The total economic collapse argument is propaganda from polluters who lobby against any change to regulations that might hurt their profits, they just want to keep making money and not change. Companies lobby government officials to not add new regulations and sometimes remove existing regulations. Follow the money. It’s the same reason Joe Manchin neutered the Green New Deal, because he own one of the largest coal power plants in the country. There is government corruption, but regulations are the only way to make lasting change to the way we care for our environment. There’s a huge difference in saying a company can’t dump chemical byproducts of car paint manufacturers straight into our water supply, and fascism/total economic collapse. Libertarians are just people who don’t understand how systems work. No point in arguing with you anymore. Peace out.

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bigapewhat089 t1_je02tup wrote

A better way for me to phrase it is. I understand what you are saying and I kinda agree, but I don't think the government will solve it but rather they will fuck it up more. Example California and their plastic straw law. Its a cash grab. New York and the right to repair law, doctored right before release to help big corp.

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