deltadovertime t1_itfnzq7 wrote
Reply to comment by Corsair4 in China is building a 40 gigawatt offshore wind farm, the biggest power plant in existence by mutherhrg
It’s a very North American centric view to think china and India is the real problem with global emissions.
In reality North America has some of the worse per capita emissions and probably the worst outside of the Middle East. But at least people in the Middle East don’t drive around in trucks they don’t need.
Tupcek t1_itfsrev wrote
to understand why it is this way, we have to look at psychology as well as geopolitics.
First, after second world war, US was an industrial powerhouse. Asia didn’t have the know how or technology to produce almost anything and Europe was starting to rebuild itself. Later, Europe did start its own manufacturing at scale, but it wasn’t any cheaper than US, so the US maintained a lot of the industry, making its citizens very wealthy even in factory lines jobs.
China started to gain traction in 80s, but it wasn’t until 00s when they basically could manufacture anything cheaper than US, basically destroying expensive US products. Of course, US had better marketing, better quality control, better management skills and much much better IT, so they kept making high-end goods, but middle class and not-so-smart people certainly had it worse.
Also, people like scapegoats. People don’t like being told you have to work harder to have a good life, it’s much easier to blame someone. For 40 years, it was USSR and communists. But after it’s dissolution, Russia was too weak to be seen as “the cause” of all the troubles. Mexico didn’t cut it either, though took some blame. China, as a rising global star, was the perfect candidate for the blame game. Can’t find work? It’s not because you lack skills, it’s because China took your work. Any other domestic problem? China! Politicians love that, because it can blame shift from domestic issues (better education for more high end jobs etc.) to some common evil they have to fight. They can make strong gestures and they win votes, instead of fixing shit.
So both political parties are pushing anti-China propaganda for three decades now and will happily continue. Even better, Chinese governments ain’t no saints and China does have its own problems, which are very easy to point out, while skipping over any good things they do.
PositivityBear t1_itg5764 wrote
It's easier to blame someone else than to point out if we had invested in automation and advanced manufacturing and upskilled, we could still be a production location. That would mean reinvestment though, and not just sucking money out of production.
The few remaining productive works in the west are those with technological uphands or protective tarrifs etc.
upL8N8 t1_itgfs59 wrote
That's not even half the story. How about international trade rules that were relaxed? How about much lower Chinese wages and worse worker protections (like working hours and overtime rules)? How about that 996 schedule that essentially allowed China to cut a shift at a 24 hour plant by making a 12 hour a day 6 days per week schedule standard practice? China was just one nation like this.
Large corporations, regardless of where they're headquarters were (many were in the US and considered American corporations) started moving production to low wage nations and exporting back into high wage nations to drive up their profits.
Apple is a shining example of this. Even to this day, look at how high the margins are on their hardware products, and that's AFTER Chinese wages have spent 20 years increasing. Look at Tesla, the first car company in China to start massive vehicle exports to the West, whose seem their profit margins jump since starting and expanding production there. (They export to Europe and other higher wage nations because at least Trump knew enough to stop Chinese vehicle imports with a new tariff). Now Biden is squashing any hope of vehicle imports from any low wage nation. (It looks like investors tried to circumvent the Chinese tariff by building factories in Vietnam...see Vinfast)
The US government all but guaranteed this eventuality with the relaxed trade rules (aka no tariffs in imports) back in 2000 and lack of investment at home. Why spend a billion on a new factory in the US, when instead we could experience years of high unemployment and pay out huge amounts for government assistance? Who pays for it? Corporations? Hah... No one pays (at least not right now)... we'll just grow our national debt!
Corporations couldn't have done a better job of enacting legislation to their own benefit if they governed the country themselves. They basically do through their massive lobbying efforts, campaign contributions, and promises of lucrative jobs after a politician is out office.
toweringpine t1_itgbsaj wrote
You put a lot of extra letters in the one word answer: arrogance.
upL8N8 t1_itgci9e wrote
Per Capita emissions certainly matters, but how much? China's population is 4x larger than the US, and the country's total emissions make up 27% of global emissions versus 11% from the US. (If my quick Google search is correct)
Also remember that much of China's population is far poorer than in the US. It isn't that they don't want luxuries, it's that they can't afford them. Often because their labor is overworked and underpaid. Many of their industry workers are crammed into small apartments. Can you imagine the type of energy China would need if their citizens all had enough money to afford A/C, clothes dryers, personal vehicles, and more space in their homes?
Not saying North Americans don't need to live more frugally with little more than a minor inconvenience, but there's a pretty big difference in quality of life for the workers in each nation. In terms of which nation pays their workers a larger share of the revenue their products generate, that's clearly in favor of the US. It's no surprise that for-profit corporations would rather build manufacturing facilities in China than in the US and then export the products to Western nations using highly pollutive container ships. I'd be curious which country those shipping emissions get attributed to.
The solution to stop people from using all their money on things that drive up energy use has always been a carbon tax, but our politicians have failed to act. Probably because it would not only be unpopular, but it would force even more companies to send jobs to nations without those taxes. (As it they haven't already done so to a huge degree) Those emissions taxes would need to be setup in a way to impose a tariff on imported goods based on the emissions from production.
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