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chancellortobyiii OP t1_j43izqm wrote

Reply to comment by sumknowbuddy in A wormhole that connects two points in space where the strength of gravity is different would let you violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics. by chancellortobyiii

Just imagine two billiard balls. One ball is near the edge of the wormhole at ground level. Throw a second billiard ball at a very slow speed just to nudge the first billiard ball into the ground level wormhole. The first billiard ball goes in the wormhole, drops 1 kilometer and by the time it reaches the ground again it would have attained a speed greater than the second billiard ball you threw to nudge it in.

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sumknowbuddy t1_j442k5g wrote

How are you missing that the ball is not gaining any energy? That energy is simply being applied to the ground all the time in the case of the one on the ground, and the one falling is gaining energy to try and match the one that seems to be "at rest".

Are you aware of [elastic] potential energy? Or yhe energy contained in chemical bonds? A spring sitting under compression? Just because they are 'at rest' in reference to one thing doesn't mean they contain no energy in that system. You're just looking at the wrong things.

Also, how is any of this related to thermodynamics? I'm pretty sure all of those laws have to do with heat transfer...

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chancellortobyiii OP t1_j44ffci wrote

The second law of thermodynamics states that as energy is transferred or transformed, more and more of it is wasted. It's one of the four laws of thermodynamics, which describe the relationships between thermal energy, or heat, and OTHER FORMS OF ENERGY and how energy affects matter.

The 2nd law is not just about heat.

What is thermodynamics? Thermodynamics is the study of the relations between heat, work, temperature, and energy. The laws of thermodynamics describe how the energy in a system changes and whether the system can perform useful work on its surroundings.

Again thermodynamics is not just about heat.

>That energy is simply being applied to the ground all the time in the case of the one on the ground,

Yes, of course the falling billiard will transfer its energy to the ground. The point is the energy it tried to transfer TO THE GROUND is bigger than the energy the second biliard ball tried to transfer to the first billiard ball when it nudged it into the wormhole.

You're the one misguided in your notions.

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sumknowbuddy t1_j4575ls wrote

Again, you're looking at a very narrow scope for the question you're posing. It's not gaining energy at all, since the Earth would be exerting the same amount of energy on it regardless.

Had your wormhole pulled it from a pure vacuum that cannot actually exist in real life, your 'misguided notions' would be correct. However, the energy in the system has not changed at all; the location of your theoretical billiard ball has. Now if we extrapolate the energy distribution over time across a large timeframe, unless we'll assume that that billiard ball is undergoing infinite "nudges" into said wormhole [all of which you're conveniently ignoring as energy going into the system], then that ball falling in a single instance is no different from one at a standstill in reference to the Earth.

For such a theoretical, large scale question, you sure are focused on the minutiae.

And wouldn't it be better just to use Newton's Laws, which the laws of thermodynamics are derived from anyways..?

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