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arckeid t1_j7zhy20 wrote

Mass layoffs and record for robot orders, there is no way we gonna have UBI, right?

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[deleted] t1_j7zuapf wrote

Lowest unemployment in 50 years, so either the mass layoffs aren't all that massive or the mass hiring is significantly more massive. Either way mass layoffs is not really an accurate representation of the US economy. Inflation is a little high, but so is demand and now inflation is falling but demand is not.

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ObiwanaTokie t1_j80lsbb wrote

At least where I’m at prices are still climbing annnnd gas is going way back up

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Durabys t1_j8323pt wrote

Read Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber to understand that the high paid fullfilling jobs are already mostly gone by 2010. What remains are “safety valve” jobs that Capitalists realize they have to create to give something to occupy the minds of the working class because a mind with nothing to work and with spare time to think about its circumstances would be a mortal danger to them.

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cowet t1_j81my0z wrote

It seems to just have hit the tech sector specifically

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mhornberger t1_j7zydvc wrote

Layoffs are being offset by job openings elsewhere. Unemployment is at its lowest since 1968 or so. Wages were creeping up even before the pandemic.

And I haven't seen anyone figure out how to fund a UBI. Not one robust enough to replace all means-tested programs, Social Security, the whole bit. Not enough for everyone to live on. It's not like a UBI is a figured-out problem and someone just needs to finally get off their ass and flip the switch.

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ktpr t1_j8082yu wrote

There are many proposals for funding UBI. You just have to look. One big idea is to separate the idea of wealth from money and use negative taxation, see: https://citizen-network.org/library/how-to-fund-a-universal-basic-income.html

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mhornberger t1_j80b8n1 wrote

Money is just a store for wealth, a way to simplify exchange. It has a pretty high degree of utility, which will be hard to get away from. We know that money and wealth are not literally the same things.

The money in my checking account and even index funds isn't "lying idle." The wealth is out in the economy in the form of loans, investments, stock ownership, etc. The 'money,' the numbers with the dollar signs, are just entries in a ledger. They aren't 'things' we can poke with a stick to get to work. The wealth is already out there doing stuff.

A "negative interest rate" is just a tax, an x-percent reduction of the numbers in my ledger so you can fund benefits, government procurement, etc. We know that taxes exist. The question is whether you can tax (or impose a "negative interest rate" if you prefer that terminology) the population enough, at a high enough rate, to fund this thing, without them just voting you out of office.

Because a UBI needs to replace Social Security and all the means-tested programs already out there, but for everyone. The problem isn't that people don't understand the nature of money, but that the numbers don't pan out. "But people don't realize that wealth and money aren't the same things" doesn't address that.

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OriginalCompetitive t1_j80kgez wrote

It would be almost impossible to fund today, but might not be that hard when we finally need it.

If you figure $20k per year for 330M people, that’s $6.6 trillion. Total US GDP is $23T, so today it would be colossally expensive. But GDP grows 2% per year. At that rate, GDP will add an extra $6.6T in about ten years - and that’s after inflation.

So in theory we’ll have an extra $6.6T to play with in another decade. That doesn’t mean it still wouldn’t be difficult. But it’s feasible.

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ktpr t1_j807wt8 wrote

We’ll have something or else we’ll all end up with nothing in the end.

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Garglemysac t1_j80rzqc wrote

Who's buying the stuff if nobody is working? Who's paying for ubi if nobody is working? It would end up being the companies paying for ubi to people who are buying things from them?

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Landmen t1_j826y2f wrote

Robots both keep jobs here and bring jobs back. They aren't replacing complex tasks... Just the shit that someone in china was doing for 8 bucks a day.

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