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xPlus2Minus1 t1_j1n9tns wrote

Me, John cage's 4'33 on repeat

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TheRebelChemist t1_j1o53dk wrote

Asked Siri to play this.

Took me way too long to realize the music was never coming.

Edit: and then I lost all function of my eardrums at 4:33 when a different song came on.

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GalacticShonen t1_j1oc7ea wrote

The silence, or the sounds in the silence, was the music :)

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ariolitmax t1_j1pk6ks wrote

It makes a lot more sense live. A lot of tension forms in the air, as every creak and sniffle in the audience seems amplified a hundredfold.

In fact, there was a follow up piece written, with the very catchy name

One^3 = 4′ 33″ (0′ 00″) + 𝄞

It’s essentially the same idea, but with a microphone pointed at the audience to literally amplify the noises they’re making. So in my mind the piece is very much about the noises you make, and your experience within silence, rather than the silence itself

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elpajaroquemamais t1_j1q9jpm wrote

The way most musicians shuffle through their papers between movements. 😂

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AnAquaticOwl t1_j1oa9c1 wrote

Yeah. There isn't really a difference between music and "noise". Noise is arguably something that's unpleasant to the listener, but what's unpleasant to one person can be enjoyed by another. Hell, Noise *is* a genre of music.

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GalacticShonen t1_j1oclsa wrote

For sound or "noise" to be "music" you need an artist (intention of stimulus) and an audience (perception of stimulus) which you could argue is a form of organization/pattern/structure

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AnAquaticOwl t1_j1odhfa wrote

That's an oversimplification. John Cage argued that music could be defined as sound organized in time, which would imply that someone was deliberately organizing it but what about naturally occurring music (birds for example)? Does it need to be organized deliberately by a human?

What about artists who record random sounds from the environment and use that as a composition? Cabaret Voltaire used to record the sounds of the construction site across the street from their studio, NWW's Soliliquy for Lilith is composed of a feedback glitch, and Einstuerzende Neubauten's Steh Auf Berlin begins with the sound of a jackhammer to give a few examples.

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GalacticShonen t1_j1ofqb9 wrote

It totally is a simplification but its a framework that works. Birds making the sound are still an "artist", or specifically from a cognitive science perspective, an agent that produces or modifies the stimulus.

Those artists using random sounds are still an agent putting intention into a stimulus through its presentation.

There doesn't need to be a separation between "artist" and "audience" either. By observing a stimulus, you yourself modify the perception of the stimulus through a psychological phenomena known as predictive processing.

One of my research areas is in music psychology, just my 2 cents. Definitely an interesting discussion

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Feynmanprinciple t1_j1ozb83 wrote

I recall seeing an interview from a shakuhachi master about his approach to playing, and John cage was among the audience. The monk spoke about there only ever being one sound, and playing the shakuhachi helped one realize this. One of the musicians asked what the sound was, and the shakuhachi master clapped his hands and said 'that was it'.

I believe John cage got his inspiration for 4'33 from the komuso tradition, and music students have been joking about it between themselves ever since. But if you actually check out suizen it's a well explored form of meditation.

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_mach t1_j1ov5xr wrote

> John Cage argued that music could be defined as sound organized in time, which would imply that someone was deliberately organizing it but what about naturally occurring music (birds for example)? Does it need to be organized deliberately by a human?

Did John Cage mention "human" though? You seem to shift the goal post there.

>What about artists who record random sounds from the environment and use that as a composition? Cabaret Voltaire used to record the sounds of the construction site across the street from their studio, NWW's Soliliquy for Lilith is composed of a feedback glitch, and Einstuerzende Neubauten's Steh Auf Berlin begins with the sound of a jackhammer to give a few examples.

there's nothing random about those sounds, though - they were clearly organized into appearing at a specific point, in a specific context.

The Nurse with Wound example is interesting, but it's literally noise organised in time...

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AnAquaticOwl t1_j1prykw wrote

The other user mentioned humans. "For sound or "noise" to be "music" you need an artist (intention of stimulus)"

"there's nothing random about those sounds, though - they were clearly organized into appearing at a specific point, in a specific context."

Sort of. A construction site is indeed just random noise...but what if I individually recorded each machine - a jackhammer, an excavator, men yelling, a dude with a rivet gun - and assembled them myself into the sounds of a busy construction site? It's *exactly* the same as a random site you might pass on the street but now it was assembled with intention. Is one just random noise and one noise music?

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"The Nurse with Wound example is interesting, but it's literally noise organised in time..."

But it's mostly organized by sheer chance. Sure Steve is controlling the effects pedal to change the oscillations, but he's not creating the sound. Coil made heavy use of random, unpredictable glitches in their music too (they even had a word for it - Elph).

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Boyd Rice's last album was just four long, unchanging tones.

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grill_em_aII t1_j1ovqt6 wrote

The downvotes are so weird on this

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GalacticShonen t1_j1ows60 wrote

I had a smiley face and maybe people thought I was being condescending so I removed it. I just really like this topic lol

Music education is also super behind neuroscience and psychology so there's a lot of growing pains in our discipline, adjusting to these new models of cognition and culture.

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Impeesa_ t1_j1p3ghw wrote

Me, an intellectual: playing the extended club mix so it's a less repetitive loop.

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_PineBarrens_ t1_j1pfbd7 wrote

Came here to say something along this line - repetition and organisation are hallmarks of traditional forms of music such as western classical.

20th century music on the other hand throws out these ideas and you get artists such as Halim El Dabh presenting field recordings as music.

The intention / agency is what really matters.

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