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montanunion t1_j9o64ey wrote

Reply to comment by LuckyandBrownie in LPT: When debating or arguing with someone and it’s going nowhere, ask them, “What evidence would it take for you to consider that you’re wrong?” If they say “Nothing,” then it’s time to end the conversation. by blowfishmo

Yeah exactly, also a lot of debates and arguments are not based on evidence to begin with, but rather values, ideals or goals. Facts are important in debates, but usually the debate is not about facts but about conclusions/opinions. You can also often have the exact same evidence and come to different conclusion.

If somebody asked me "What evidence would change your mind that gay people should be able to get married?", "What evidence would change your mind that women should have access to abortion?", "What evidence would change your mind that religion and state should be separate things?" my answer definitely would be "none".

There's no amount of evidence that you could show me to change my mind on these topics (even though for example I've seen statistics about the risks of abortion or whatever), because these are in the end opinions and not facts and they are just as much about the (inherently in provable) value judgement about how things should be, rather than how things are.

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SmallShoes_BigHorse t1_j9omddz wrote

And as long as they are about opinions and all know it, the discussion can serve a purpose.

But when it's a fact based discussion ('is there a new world order' etc) and there is nothing that COULD convince you otherwise, then it's not a discussion but rather a shouting match and quite purposeless.

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slomobileAdmin t1_j9qr7h0 wrote

Um. Not really. Even if the discussion is only about opinions, especially if it is only about opinions, an unwillingness to even consider changing your opinion makes it a pointless discussion. Facts are not subject to change by discussion.

There is technically a new world order any time new world leaders are elected and change policy. I'll accept that as fact, though it isn't very meaningful to me. If you ascribe different meaning to "new world order", particularly outlandish conspiracy, I might need you to clarify whether our shared words have shared meaning. I may then need to retract a previous statement, assume you have a poor understanding of what facts are, and back away slowly as you shout at me.

That is slightly different from being unwilling to consider that I am wrong. It is the regretful acknowledgement that from now on, anything presented as fact by you will no longer receive the benefit of doubt. Your facts are tainted. I may however accept the same facts if presented by someone else in a careful, self consistent way that agrees with my observations and avoids common fallacies.

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SmallShoes_BigHorse t1_j9sy2pb wrote

Yea, that's why I said 'can serve a purpose' there's no guarantee that it will, but at least there's a possibility.

I had an old colleague who loved talking about globalists, NWO, Trump/Biden and just loved tossing out bait-headlines and then the 'discussion' would begin. And at one point I asked if there was anything that had the potential to change his mind, he said no. And I never engaged in discussion with him again. Because he will always be right in his POV.

Because he has decided his POV is the correct one, you can be sure he doesn't fact check his own facts but rather assumes that everything that supports his POV is correct. Which means that even though I could be persuaded to leave my standpoint, I can't trust anything that he says, since he'll swallow anything with the right shape.

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bestaquaneer t1_j9sixyo wrote

Exactly. Like Trump could scream at me that COVID-19 is fake until he’s blue in the face, and I wouldn’t believe him even if it was weeks later. A medical doctor, who calmly explained with scientific evidence that COVID-19 is fake, could get me to believe them. Sure, Trump was right, but the way the information was presented and from what I know about the person that presented it, I didn’t believe him.

(I would like to clarify that I don’t actually think COVID is fake. I know better.)

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thatfluffycloud t1_j9p8udb wrote

What would get me to change my mind in your examples would be if there was solid evidence of significant harm being done.

Like yes I 100% support gay marriage. I would change my mind if there was solid proof that all gay people who get married are secretly robots with a plot to destroy the world and it's not actually about love and human rights. (I know that would never happen, but if it did, I might change my mind! Because I follow the evidence.)

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