Submitted by dissolutewastrel t3_11mxvu2 in Pennsylvania
69FunnyNumberGuy420 t1_jbkpreu wrote
Reply to comment by No-Setting9690 in Will the cost of a central Pa. thruway reach $1B? PennDOT officials hope not by dissolutewastrel
Building more lanes and more roads will never solve traffic problems. The only thing that does is getting cars off the road.
Chemical_Miracle_0 t1_jbl6zbp wrote
To get that you need to restrict and reduce single family zoning and focus on building more densely. You can’t have one without the other.
No-Setting9690 t1_jbkvrzk wrote
I'm all for that. Loved it during pandemic, was like a private highway.
Blexcr0id t1_jbnpmks wrote
Dirty hippie public transit... In murica, cars = freedom!
ronreadingpa t1_jbok1tt wrote
More lanes often do help. When they completed the RT 222 conversion to a 4-lane limited access highway back around 2007 (delayed about 40 years), getting to Lancaster County from Reading area became much easier and faster. Also, traffic on surrounding back roads decreased. Even 15+ years later, it's still better than before.
Some don't like cars and that's fine, but more roads and lanes, on the whole, do help. Anyone doubting that should look at how long it used to take to drive across Pennsylvania before the PA turnpike and other highways, such as I-80, were built.
I remember the days before the Blue Route was built (started in the 60s and finally opened around 1990). Getting to the Philadelphia airport was a nightmare. Some will point out the nasty traffic jams on there as a proof that more highways / lanes don't help. However, the main reason for the jams around milepost 9 is due to be only 2 lanes each way instead of 3 lanes as originally proposed. Traffic on the 3-lane northern section generally moves well.
Not going to change your mind, but pointing this out for others. Many PA residents want and demand more highways. Not only that, many are willing to pay extra tolls (begrudgingly) if that's what it takes to get them built. Many people value their time and want flexibility in travel. Difficult to take camping gear or lumber on the bus. Renting a car sounds good, but is very expensive and not guaranteed (may not get a car or isn't the type expected), but I digress.
69FunnyNumberGuy420 t1_jbomoh4 wrote
> More lanes often do help.
No, they don't.
https://www.planetizen.com/definition/induced-demand
Read this book:
https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780865477506/suburbannation
In a nutshell, the problem is that our road network works on a trunk-and-feeder system. You've got a great many surface feeder streets and roads feeding into a limited number of high speed trunk highways. Adding more lanes to a freeway will not work as long as the feeder lanes exceed the trunk lanes.
https://dot.ca.gov/-/media/dot-media/programs/research-innovation-system-information/documents/final-reports/10-12-2015-ncst_brief_inducedtravel_cs6_v3.pdf
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/06/us/widen-highways-traffic.html
California has been adding lanes to LA-area freeways for decades at this point and it's only made traffic worse.
> Not going to change your mind, but pointing this out for others. Many PA residents want and demand more highways.
Many PA residents don't know what they actually want. What they actually want is to not spend so much time in their cars, because driving is a shitty boring chore. Adding lanes won't do that for them.
ronreadingpa t1_jboq5ol wrote
Can't speak for California. In PA more roads and lanes often do help. I know from personal experience.
Induced demand is an issue, but not building new roads / adding lanes isn't the answer either. It needs to be a combination of better road infrastructure and other transportation options along with coordinating zoning across municipalities.
In my view, among the most promising is on-demand public transit. Instead of full-size buses running on a fixed routes, using a mix of vehicles from vans to full-size buses instead with flexible routes. Closest analogy would be Uber Pool. If done right, many would use it.
69FunnyNumberGuy420 t1_jboqkcg wrote
> Can't speak for California. In PA more roads and lanes often do help.
Pennsylvania does not exist on a fundamentally different plane of existence than California, so no they don't. As any trip through the freeways in Philly will show you.
> but not building new roads / adding lanes isn't the answer either.
The answer is to remove vehicles from the road. That is the only way to alleviate traffic. Unfortunately, most Americans cannot imagine a life that doesn't involve driving alone an average of 40 miles a day.
> In my view, among the most promising is on-demand public transit. Instead of full-size buses running on a fixed routes, using a mix of vehicles from vans to full-size buses instead with flexible routes. Closest analogy would be Uber Pool. If done right, many would use it.
Congratulations, you just reinvented the jitney.
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