Submitted by krabstarr t3_yiaq6d in Pennsylvania
PaApprazer t1_iui0lir wrote
Reply to comment by billfriedman9987 in No, Pennsylvania didn’t send 255K ballots to ‘unverified’ voters by krabstarr
What part of increased use of mail-in voting are you not understanding? Why is election night results a requirement? Wouldn’t knowing all legally cast votes are counted be the goal? smfh
oldschoolskater t1_iui26mx wrote
We could know almost all legally cast votes on election night just like other states already do. Wouldn't you prefer that to the system that we use that causes doubt the longer it takes?
PaApprazer t1_iui8c5k wrote
We could know almost all? Lol, yeah would should change for an almost
oldschoolskater t1_iui9ht7 wrote
When you confirm enough votes on election night and the remaining ones can't overcome the difference they can call the election. If there isn't enough then you wait. That's the way it's always worked. With the large amount of mail in happening now it gets more difficult so we wait. The longer it takes the more doubt is built in voters minds.
PaApprazer t1_iuiaml2 wrote
Doubt about what, the process?
You reap what you sow
oldschoolskater t1_iuibftq wrote
Seems like doubt is the intended purpose when you wait till election day to count.
cpr4life8 t1_iujfk21 wrote
Which is why the PA GOP state legislature won't allow early counting. They want that doubt. They need that doubt.
PaApprazer t1_iuijhfh wrote
Seems like waiting until Election Day to count is the law
oldschoolskater t1_iuiltr8 wrote
Seems it still is for 12 states.
billfriedman9987 t1_iuie9hj wrote
That’s the problem, mail in votes are prone to fraud attempts.
PaApprazer t1_iuijqt8 wrote
Said every election denier without a shred of proof … well, except for the countless examples of republican voters committing fraud.
billfriedman9987 t1_iuiwpp5 wrote
Absentee ballots are fine and secure
Universal mail in ballots are not.
PaApprazer t1_iuiz7ur wrote
Lol, I’ll consider that your opinion without proof. We all know what they say about opinions …
billfriedman9987 t1_iuizez8 wrote
It’s not just my opinion, it’s the opinion of every industrialized nation outside the US
PaApprazer t1_iuj0b1g wrote
Let’s just stick with you … so, give me an example and what resulted from the fraud you are speaking about?
Boating_with_Ra t1_iujbiqx wrote
Can you explain what the difference is between an absentee ballot and a mail ballot? Why is one more secure than the other?
billfriedman9987 t1_iujqstj wrote
I actually just posted this in another reply so here it is.
With an absentee ballot, you provide information, you sign a form, and they mail one to you to fill out. It is uniquely tied to you and your name and signature is associated with the vote. You requested the ballot and turned it in. This is fine and has been a common practice for years for those who are out of state or medically unable to vote. There is also the no-excuse category, which again, I'm fine with, but it follows the same process but there is no actual reason other than convenience for this service. This is ok.
What is not ok is universal mail in ballots, where they are sent to every single voter. This sounds good on paper, right? But it has a lot of issues associated with it.
Because of widespread inaccuracies in a state’s voter registration records, a state that sends ballots to all registered voters will inadvertently send ballots to persons ineligible to vote or others with fake registrations, invalid registrations, outdated registrations, and to the deceased.
Furthermore, with this type of carpet-bomb approach, it lends to ballot harvesting which if you are unfamiliar is the practice of collecting ballots from large groups of people and submitting them en-masse, often times empowered by political candidates and in doing so alter the legitimacy of those ballots.
There is a reason that no industrialized nation condones universal mail in ballots. This is not just a democratic or republican issue; this is an issue that impacts all of us.
Boating_with_Ra t1_iujzucc wrote
But this isn’t what happens in Pennsylvania. Mail-in voting in PA is the exact same process as absentee voting. They don’t mail everyone a ballot. They mail everyone a notice that you can vote by mail and give you instructions to do so, and if you want to apply for a mail-in ballot, you follow all those steps you described for absentee ballots.
InterLoper610 t1_iuioynr wrote
Maybe in your fantasy world that's true, in the real world election fraud is so rare that it basically doesn't exist. Surely you have a ton of evidence to back up this claim?
cpr4life8 t1_iujftom wrote
And absolutely not on a scale significant enough to sway election results.
billfriedman9987 t1_iuiwix6 wrote
Absentee ballots =! Universal mail in ballots.
Simply put, it’s like a blank check that can be falsified, duplicated and corrupted.
Absentee ballots are requested for each voter. These are fine. It’s the universal ballots that are prone to fraud
InterLoper610 t1_iuiwyc3 wrote
I missed the part where you supported your wild claims with actual evidence.
billfriedman9987 t1_iuixfpv wrote
Of the 47 countries in Europe, a staggering 46 require government-issued photo IDs for in-person voting. The only exception is the United Kingdom, where a photo ID is required for national elections in Northern Ireland but not for Scotland, Wales, and England. Both Canada and Mexico require a government-issued photo ID. Mexico goes a step farther by making its ID biometric with both photo and fingerprints.
European, Canadian, and Mexican absentee ballot laws are much more restrictive than ours. None automatically sends absentee ballots to all registered voters.
You know why? Because In doing so you open your election to fraud.
InterLoper610 t1_iuixul1 wrote
Also not actual evidence of your nonsense claims. Gee Im beginning to think that you aren't actually citing evidence here.
billfriedman9987 t1_iuiy6pm wrote
You are delusional if you don’t see the issue with a. Universal mail in ballot. What im saying is there is a reason why no other developed country allows for it.
Absentee ballots that are requested are not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the 2020 universal mail in ballots. The pandemic is over, it’s time to go back to the previous system
rivershimmer t1_iuizkyk wrote
> Simply put, it’s like a blank check that can be falsified, duplicated and corrupted.
Sure, but we don't ban checks because of the potential for abuse. You want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
billfriedman9987 t1_iuizqvw wrote
Uhhh…
rivershimmer t1_iuj0b7t wrote
I see I've left you speechless.
billfriedman9987 t1_iuj0xad wrote
Yes, idiotic comparisons generally do.
You realize checks have identifying information on them, correct?
These universal ballots do not.
rivershimmer t1_iuj1nbe wrote
Except, as so many Republican voters discovered in 2020 when they were arrested for double-voting or voting for their dead relatives, it's pretty easy to zero in on criminals who think they gaming the system. Every ballot is going to come in an envelope with someone's name on it. Easy enough to figure out if it's a legit vote.
cpr4life8 t1_iujfzsk wrote
Each ballot has a fucking unique bar code on it. 🙄
billfriedman9987 t1_iujqk30 wrote
You are missing the point.
With an absentee ballot, you provide information, you sign a form, and they mail one to you to fill out. It is uniquely tied to you and your name and signature is associated with the vote. You requested the ballot and turned it in. This is fine and has been a common practice for years for those who are out of state or medically unable to vote. There is also the no-excuse category, which again, I'm fine with, but it follows the same process but there is no actual reason other than convenience for this service. This is ok.
What is not ok is universal mail in ballots, where they are sent to every single voter. This sounds good on paper, right? But it has a lot of issues associated with it.
Because of widespread inaccuracies in a state’s voter registration records, a state that sends ballots to all registered voters will inadvertently send ballots to persons ineligible to vote or others with fake registrations, invalid registrations, outdated registrations, and to the deceased.
Furthermore, with this type of carpet-bomb approach, it lends to ballot harvesting which if you are unfamiliar is the practice of collecting ballots from large groups of people and submitting them en-masse, often times empowered by political candidates and in doing so alter the legitimacy of those ballots.
There is a reason that no industrialized nation condones universal mail in ballots. This is not just a democratic or republican issue; this is an issue that impacts all of us.
rivershimmer t1_iujsqs5 wrote
> What is not ok is universal mail in ballots, where they are sent to every single voter.
Well, we don't do that in Pennsylvania, so is there any reason you're choosing to complain about it here rather than, say, the Oregon or Utah subreddits?
cpr4life8 t1_iujs062 wrote
I'm not missing any point I'm just not buying your propaganda bullshit.
Deacon_Blues1 t1_iuj6aom wrote
You got nothing and can not cite anything. Please prove me wrong
billfriedman9987 t1_iujqu5i wrote
With an absentee ballot, you provide information, you sign a form, and they mail one to you to fill out. It is uniquely tied to you and your name and signature is associated with the vote. You requested the ballot and turned it in. This is fine and has been a common practice for years for those who are out of state or medically unable to vote. There is also the no-excuse category, which again, I'm fine with, but it follows the same process but there is no actual reason other than convenience for this service. This is ok.
What is not ok is universal mail in ballots, where they are sent to every single voter. This sounds good on paper, right? But it has a lot of issues associated with it.
Because of widespread inaccuracies in a state’s voter registration records, a state that sends ballots to all registered voters will inadvertently send ballots to persons ineligible to vote or others with fake registrations, invalid registrations, outdated registrations, and to the deceased.
Furthermore, with this type of carpet-bomb approach, it lends to ballot harvesting which if you are unfamiliar is the practice of collecting ballots from large groups of people and submitting them en-masse, often times empowered by political candidates and in doing so alter the legitimacy of those ballots.
There is a reason that no industrialized nation condones universal mail in ballots. This is not just a democratic or republican issue; this is an issue that impacts all of us.
Deacon_Blues1 t1_iujxeyn wrote
You are not citing anything. Where are you getting your information?
ScottEATF t1_iuio3bg wrote
And your evidence of this is?
billfriedman9987 t1_iuiw4dx wrote
There are fraud problems with mail-in absentee ballots but the problems with universal mail-in ballots are much more significant. Still most countries ban even absentee ballots for people living in their countries.
Most developed countries ban absentee ballots unless the citizen is living abroad or require Photo-IDs to obtain those ballots. Even higher percentages of European Union or other European countries ban absentee for in country voters. In addition, some countries that allow voting by mail for citizens living the country don’t allow it for everyone. For example, Japan and Poland have limited mail-in voting to those who have special certificates verifying that they are disabled.
France has made an exception in 2020 to the ban absentee ballots to those who are sick or at particular risk during the Coronavirus pandemic. Poland and two cities in Russia have adopted mail-in ballots for elections this year only, but most countries haven't changed their regulations.
Deacon_Blues1 t1_iuj657y wrote
Can you cite the fraud?
rivershimmer t1_iuizc1z wrote
I don't think it's a fair comparison, the spread-out USA to more compact, densely populated, highly urbanized nations with excellent public transportation like Japan or France. A better comparison would be to Canada or Australia, geographically big countries with lots of citizens living in the boonies. And both those countries offer mail-in voting.
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