tkyjonathan t1_ixs42ha wrote
Reply to comment by SilverNicktail in U.S. Renewable Energy Will Surge Past Coal and Nuclear by Year’s End by VanillaSwimming5699
Ah goodie. I always like it when people smear and name call in the conversation. That way you know their argument is weak.
LCOE fails to factor a lot of the additional costs of unreliable energy sources that is the burdened onto the grid. The fact of the matter is that any large scale installation of unreliable energy sources increases the overall price of energy. For example, (even before 2022) Germany, Denmark and California.
SilverNicktail t1_ixsah7s wrote
> Ah goodie. I always like it when people smear and name call inconversation. That way you know their argument is weak.
Didn't do either of those things - literally didn't call you any names at all, and your comment history is very consistent and very public - but sneering about it is a good way to try and deflect ain't it?
> LCOE fails to factor a lot of the additional costs of unreliable energy sources that is the burdened onto the grid.
And do you have any figures showing that costs outside LCOE are higher enough for renewables that it offsets the higher costs of fossil fuel generation?
Meanwhile, electricity costs in Texas have skyrocketed because of the increased cost of gas...
You know what doesn't need unreliable fuel supply from hostile nations? The sun.
Every anti-renewable FUD-spreader points at the same small number of places with higher prices and says "renewables did that", ignoring anything that doesn't agree with them - like PG&E in Cali going broke because of climate-induced wildfires, ironically.
Should we factor climate damage into the total cost of non-renewable energy sources? (Actually, we totally should.) I don't think it'll end well for them.
tkyjonathan t1_ixsdaj4 wrote
> Didn't do either of those things
You did it in your last comment and even in this comment. You don't even notice that you are smearing? You are basically just making an argument from intimidation.
> And do you have any figures showing that costs outside LCOE are higher enough for renewables that it offsets the higher costs of fossil fuel generation?
Yes, I gave you 3 countries with large unreliable infrastructure as a point of reference to high energy costs. If you want to compare, take any eastern european country that still largely runs on coal and compare energy costs.
> You know what doesn't need unreliable fuel supply from hostile nations? The sun.
Except the concrete, nickel, copper, lithium and a variety of rare earth minerals. All mined in China. Where solar panels are almost exclusively made, because the process is so toxic, it fails western standards. That then needs to be connected to the grid through new lines running through people's back yards or forested areas. That then need 100% backup power when the sun isnt shining - so double the costs just on the backup. And if you want batteries, then the cost is already x3-4 higher than fossil fuels. Not to mention that large batteries catch on fire when over heated... etc... etc.. etc..
SilverNicktail t1_ixsnzge wrote
>You are basically just making an argument from intimidation.
Hahaha, holy shit.
"Your public comment history consists of defences of capitalism."
"THIS IS INTIMIDATION!!!!!!!1!!11!1!"
You're fucking hilarious, mate. Do another one.
> Yes, I gave you 3 countries with large unreliable infrastructure as a point of reference to high energy costs.
Source: trust me, bro.
> Except the concrete, nickel, copper, lithium and a variety of rare earth minerals. All mined in China.
Concrete's mined in China, is it? lol
The vast majority of copper comes from the Americas. https://www.statista.com/statistics/264626/copper-production-by-country/
Nickel is incredibly common but the largest exporters are Indonesia and Australia. https://nickelinstitute.org/en/about-nickel-and-its-applications/
The largest producer of lithium is Australia, by quite some distance. https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/our-natural-resources/minerals-mining/minerals-metals-facts/lithium-facts/24009
I know that some folks - not that I would want to "smear" anyone, lol - think that countries outside the US consist of "Europe" and "Chy-na", but it turns out that's not actually how things work.
See those links, by the way? Those are called "sources". They're what happens when your opinions are evidence-based.
> Where solar panels are almost exclusively made, because the process is so toxic, it fails western standards.
If that were the case, there wouldn't be any solar manufacturing in North America, would there? Except that there is.
Glad to hear you're against environmentally damaging resource extraction though. With that in mind, you're gonna flip your fuckin' lid when you learn where coal, gas and oil come from.
> That then needs to be connected to the grid through new lines running through people's back yards or forested areas.
My god, he's done it, people. The Achilles' heel of renewable energy production that somehow everyone else in the world missed, but this brave, noble soul has found for us - electricity goes down CABLES!
Who knew??
And this only affects renewables! Trust him on that!
Man, you're just so very well-informed and extremely clever. We should definitely be listening to someone who thinks you mine concrete.
EDIT - I can't respond to this chucklefuck's latest blah-blah for some reason, Reddit's fucking up.
tkyjonathan t1_ixu0fgd wrote
> You're fucking hilarious, mate. Do another one.
You must be mentally challenged. All your arguments are smears about me working for or helping rich and powerful companies. This is an argument from intimidation, plain and simple.
Some links for you, because you seem to like to find "counter narrative" facts to reality:
China to dominate 95% of solar panel supply chain https://www.downtoearth.org.in/news/energy/china-to-dominate-95-of-solar-panel-supply-chain-83651#:~:text=China%20currently%20manufactures%20and%20supplies,Agency%20(IEA)%20has%20said.&text=Based%20on%20the%20current%20expansion,entire%20manufacturing%20process%20by%202025.
Denmark and Germany have the highest energy prices in Europe (graph included) http://www.keanegruending.com/climate-policy/denmarks-race-to-renewable-electricity-how-costly-and-environmentally-efficient/
Renewables use NG as a backup for when the sun doesnt shine and the wind doesnt blow, making dependence on it higher. This is a key driving factor for energy poverty (and inflation) in Europe.
https://www.statsjamie.co.uk/high-energy-prices/
https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/why-cant-renewable-energy-sources-keep-uk-energy-prices-down/
https://greenworld.org.uk/article/energy-crisis-why-are-renewable-prices-rising-too
European Windfarm and Solar companies are going out of business, because renewables are too expensive and unprofitable. https://stopthesethings.com/2022/04/24/transition-to-bankruptcy-europes-wind-turbine-makers-face-massive-financial-collapse/
As you can see, a large part of inflation in europe is energy related and I already mentioned dependance on NG partially due to renewables. https://www.oecd.org/sdd/prices-ppp/statistical-insights-why-is-inflation-so-high-now-in-the-largest-oecd-economies-a-statistical-analysis.htm
SilverNicktail t1_ixvdtrh wrote
Reddit's not letting me respond in full for some reason, so let's try this in chunks.
> You must be mentally challenged. All your arguments are smears about me working for or helping rich and powerful companies. This is an argument from intimidation, plain and simple.
Didn't say you worked for anyone. Seriously, I didn't, go back and look. You're really really bad at reading and comprehension.
> This is an argument from intimidation, plain and simple.
ROFL
Also, some guy said this, can't remember who:
> I always like it when people smear and name call in conversation. That way you know their argument is weak.
Cough
> Some links for you, because you seem to like to find "counter narrative" facts to reality:
Which things I wrote or quoted are counter to reality? You've not managed to contradict them. In fact, it's really fucking obvious that you just threw something like "expensive renewable energy" into Google and pasted me whatever results came up. Let's go through your bullshit here:
> China to dominate 95% of solar panel supply chain
It's always a sign of someone being really honest when they move the goalposts. Here's the stupid thing you actually said:
> Except the concrete, nickel, copper, lithium and a variety of rare earth minerals. All mined in China. Where solar panels are almost exclusively made, because the process is so toxic, it fails western standards.
Which I refuted because that's not where stuff's mined, the part about western standards is bullshit, and you don't mine concrete, lol. An honest person would admit they were incorrect, whereas a dishonest person would move the goalposts and double-down on the one thing nobody argued with. Guess which one you are.
You also completely failed to address that your argument about mining being destructive applies far more to fossil fuels than it does renewables, but let's be honest, we all expected that. Introspection is for thinkers.
> Denmark and Germany have the highest energy prices in Europe (graph included) http://www.keanegruending.com/climate-policy/denmarks-race-to-renewable-electricity-how-costly-and-environmentally-efficient/
You didn't read this particular blog post, did you? 'Cos it says this:
> So if electricity in Denmark is inexpensive to produce, why the high cost for end users? It has to be some sort of expensive subsidy towards renewables, right? Not so fast. Taxes are actually the primary constituent of Denmark’s electricity costs. 56% of the consumer cost of electricity goes towards taxes that support the Danish welfare state.
Fuckin' WHOOPS. I'll forgive you, though. You're new to this whole "evidence" thing. You didn't realise that you have to actually read and understand your sources. Next!
SilverNicktail t1_ixve5q1 wrote
> https://www.statsjamie.co.uk/high-energy-prices/
This one blames the rise in energy costs entirely on gas, and the shortfall in generation in not rolling out enough generation to replace the elimination of coal. That's two sources you've not read.Next!
> https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/why-cant-renewable-energy-sources-keep-uk-energy-prices-down/
Literally the same thing again, lol. This time you didn't even read as far as the fucking byline:
> Huge increases in gas prices have sent UK energy bills skyrocketing. Renewable energy has been unable to help but there are other solutions.
Energy costs in the UK right now are entirely caused by the profiteering of fossil fuel companies, and a conservative government that refuses to stop them. Again, the issue here is that the UK doesn't have enough renewable generation and storage, not that renewables increased the price of generation. You're VERY BAD at this.
This one is LITERALLY IN THE URL ARE YOU FUCKING BLIND??
Four in a fucking row, holy shit. Every single one of these links says that the price of gas is the problem and you're twisting reality to blame renewables for the price gouging of gas companies.
Damn, one of the links you copy-pasted without reading it was actually half-decent, though even this makes it clear that some of the cost issues of renewables are part and parcel of the transition - teething issues in changing generation types. Producers have rolled out generation, but need to be putting more effort into storage so that fossil fuel plants covering variability and shortfalls - whose margins get much worse when they're used as backup rather than primary generation - can be retired altogether. Ironically, the argument being made at the end of the article about the need for the business model of generation to change is really an argument for the nationalisation of utilities, but I'm sure that both an American writing in Forbes and a hypercapitalist like yourself both completely failed to realise that.
In short, in some cases renewable rollouts have pushed prices, but they don't have to, and it isn't a permanent thing.
Sigh Aaaaand we're back to yet another article you didn't read from the UK's energy crisis that makes it extremely clear that the problem is THE PRICE OF GAS.
> https://greenworld.org.uk/article/energy-crisis-why-are-renewable-prices-rising-too
And again. Holy shit, my guy. The dead giveaway that you didn't read any of these - other than them proving you wrong - is that they all (apart from Forbes) say the same thing, and you wouldn't need six of them to say one thing.
> European Windfarm and Solar companies are going out of business, because renewables are too expensive and unprofitable. https://stopthesethings.com/2022/04/24/transition-to-bankruptcy-europes-wind-turbine-makers-face-massive-financial-collapse/
......Where do I even start? Question: do you think that a blog site dedicated to the destruction of the wind turbine industry might be biased in any way? The actual ReCharge article blames the current high inflationary rates and a large hike in the price of raw materials for the bulk of the industry's current woes. I'm sure non-renewable sources don't need things like.....steel..........They're also calling for shifts in government policy to make the industry more sustainable, because of the current auction system and a focus on minimal cost that results in reliance on outsourcing instead of domestic production. If you've managed to make that "renewables are unprofitable" whilst ignoring - oh, I dunno - everywhere and everything else on Earth, then you're honestly a bit weird.
Paywalled, but I'm guessing given how obvious it is that you haven't read these articles you don't know what's in it either. Judging by the byline, a single solar company went bust, and this is supposed to mean something to the wider market?
It's a good thing no gas suppliers have gone bust during the energy crisis or this point would look really stupid.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58732683
> As you can see, a large part of inflation in europe is energy related and I already mentioned dependance on NG partially due to renewables.
Bitch, you can't even spell "dependence". It's also pretty dumb to admit that the rise in energy prices is because of gas, and then blame renewables for it.
Wait, is that what you've been going for this entire time? That gas usage is the fault of renewables?? Countries didn't switch to gas because of renewables, lol. They switched to gas to get away from coal. Your own fucking sources show that! Remember this??
> https://www.statsjamie.co.uk/high-energy-prices/
Actually, you don't remember this because you didn't read any of this shit, but bear with me. Can you see when the "gas" bit is largest? Yeah, and you see how that's before the mass rollout of renewables? And you understand that time is a linear concept, yeah? Causality? At this point I'm wondering if you have basic fuckin' object permanence.
Natural gas was brought in because it's cheaper and cleaner than coal (not the same as being clean), which is why it's now the primary generation source in a lot of countries, and somewhat naturally the source that covers shortfall in variable renewable generation because it's already there.
Was that actually your argument in this comment? That electricity prices have gone up because of pre-existing gas generation in the grid, and that's the fault of renewables because....there...aren't yet enough renewables to not use it?
Congrats, that's the stupidest fucking thing I've heard in quite some time. Amazing.
I cannot believe how much of my Saturday morning I just let you waste blaming renewables for the price of gas. I've got my shift at the concrete mine to get to!
tkyjonathan t1_ixvnitl wrote
> Fuckin' WHOOPS. I'll forgive you, though. You're new to this whole "evidence" thing. You didn't realise that you have to actually read and understand your sources. Next!
I forgot I was talking to someone with no understanding of energy economics.
Energy is very much tied to GDP. While Denmark and Germany do tax energy sources and use them the reinvest in renewables (your preference for energy policies), it does result in "energy poverty" and that is extremely harmful to the people who have to make decisions between heat and food.
Why is this important to price of renewables? Well, they have failed to replace baseline energy sources and germany is closing business sectors due to high energy costs https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-07/german-aluminum-smelter-halves-output-on-soaring-energy-costs
As a result, germany is actually closing down wind farms and opening coal mines
https://balkangreenenergynews.com/wind-farm-in-germany-is-being-dismantled-to-expand-coal-mine/
So in general, yeah, you can make your population suffer while you follow green energy policies that hurt that population some more. Its a political and ideological decision.
[deleted] t1_ixvdsdf wrote
[deleted]
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