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UndeadPhysco t1_jdke3wp wrote

Reply to comment by jaorocha in [WP] Gandalf and Dumbledore switch places. Gandalf is now running Hogwarts, while Dumbledore is leading The Fellowship. by yax51

> Saruman was completetely powerless by the end of the return of the king because he spent all his "magic".

I thought Saruman was powerless because upon his return Gandalf essentially "outranked" Saruman and subsequently stripped Saruman of his status and power?

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jaorocha t1_jdkmwrg wrote

Gandalf out ranking and breaking his staff is more of a narrative tool tô help us understand his "upgrade" after being reincarnated on a stronger body.

Saruman, much like sauron and morgoth, put his essence into The things he created. Most notable The uruk-hai, but also his own version of a ring of power. They couldnt tap into a infinite power source like most magic users usually do.

As an example: morgoth, as melkor, was The strongest Vala - valar were "gods" that ruled under eru, The all powerful God of middle earth. Melkor was constantly jealous of Eru creations and ever since The beggining he tried doing his own. His power wasnt enough tô create things per se, so he corrupted,reshaped. This made him weaker as The time went by, because his essence was embbed into his work..

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mrzinke t1_jdl44do wrote

Gandalf's magic (and all the other magic users) is different in LotR than other worlds. They actually create new laws of reality/reshape reality with their statements, because they tap into a tiny portion of Eru Iluvatar's power of creation. They can't create whole worlds/continents like Eru could, but they can shape reality still.

When Gandalf tells the Balrog 'You shall not pass', he's making it a fundamental truth that the Balrog will not pass that spot on the bridge. Now, the Balrog has a similar level of power and could find workarounds, but it would not involve just passing where Gandalf stood.

In this context, this is what he says to Sarumen in the books:
'Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death. You have no color now, and I cast you from your order and from the Council.'
He raised his hand, and spoke in a clear cold voice. 'Saruman, your staff is broken.'

He doesn't cast a spell, he speaks and it becomes true. He just says his staff is broken, and it breaks. He says Saruman has no color (power) and he no longer does, because, yes.. he totally outranks Saruman now because he just cast Saruman out of the Wizards completely.
And this is the LIMITED amount of their power they are allowed to use on Middle-Earth.

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CremasterReflex t1_jdkpsmd wrote

Well I’m not very confident that take is supported by the silmarillion….

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