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Greyswandir t1_jd1s9r3 wrote

There are animals that have no centralized brain, like a jellyfish or a sea anemone. So without a brain at all (but still with some neurons) they would by definition fit your criteria.

But “has no brain” feels like kind of a cop out. I think your best bet for an organism with a true brain might be a cephalopod. They have big brains, but also extremely complex and highly enervated arms.

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terracottatilefish t1_jd4xu5l wrote

Not to be super pedantic, but the word you want is “innervated.” “Enervated” means tired. Which it’s certainly possible the arms are as well, but I don’t think it’s what you meant.

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Greyswandir t1_jd51yo4 wrote

No worries. I actually appreciate the correction! Ironically I was enervated when I wrote this so I mistyped the word lol

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welshmanec2 t1_jd4nc58 wrote

Also tangentially related, an octopus brain is toroidal (donut shaped) and its guy passes right through the hole in the middle of it.

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placidbeans OP t1_jd5pz4g wrote

Can any sort of nervous system (vertebrate or cephalopod) run without direct signalling from some sort of brain? Like surely if there are animals without brains but with nerves then nerves can function on their own but our nervous system wouldn’t work without the brain right? And if so is it then possible to have a nervous system run on a brain that has less neurons than the system it self? Surely that’d be impossible?

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Greyswandir t1_jd6b3ce wrote

To give a direct example from your own body: the heat is capable of beating on its own without any signals from the brain. A region of the heart called the pacemaker generates a rhythmic signal which starts a wave of muscle contraction which runs across the heart and causes it to beat in a sequence which pumps blood (random or disorganized contraction of cardiac muscle is called fibrillation, pumps little to no blood, and is what those paddles you see in ever medical show are for). The heart is only involved in sending signals which tell the pacemaker to speed up or slow down. But the basic function of the heart itself runs on its own.

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MomICantPauseReddit t1_jd66y1z wrote

I'm a high schooler so I don't really know anything, but I'm pretty sure the way our brains work isn't much like a computer or robot at all (a comparison I feel is implied by words like "run" and "system"). It may perform computations, but at the end of the day, a computer is called a computer when it can run software to complete essentially any computation. If it can't do that, it's typically reclassified as a "calculator" or a "machine", or it has some specialized name. However, evolution is not concerned with the computations it doesn't need to make, so the brain is more like specialized "hardware" to perform specifically its tasks. To make a visual analogy, if "completing a task" is compared to "connecting point A to point B", a computer will take a "rectangular" path to leave room for further infrastructure and to make things more readable. However, readability and future iterations are no concern for a "machine" optimized purely by the force of killing ones that are not. It takes a direct approach, connecting A and B with a diagonal line. I don't know if that makes sense, but it's how I visualize the difference between a computer and the brain.

So simply "scaling it down" in the same way you can a computer, by putting in processors with less power but that do the same thing, doesn't make so much sense to me. A "smaller brain" would have to somehow do the exact same things, and that means it has to be intelligently built because simply "making it smaller" wouldn't accomplish nerve function in any way other than a seizure. The brain accomplishes its exact task. If nature could make it smaller and still do the same thing, it would. In fact, the reason humans are born so underdeveloped is that if we developed any further, our heads would be too big and kill the mother every time. Maybe human innovation could build something smaller out of neurons that functions the same, but I doubt it to be frank. Nature has been perfecting this thing for about as long as the brain has existed. You could probably put something that has an analogous function into a human skull (like a baby's brain in an adult's body or an engineered "lite" version of an adult' brain), but obviously we can see that the function would be at a lower level. Let's, of course, assume that we know how to "wire" the correct neuron outputs to the nervous system to make things connect properly.

When it comes to putting a smaller species' brain into a human's head, I think it's out of the question. Like I've mused, the human brain does exactly what a human brain should do. The function of, say, a monkey is completely foreign. It's almost like if you tried to take two people who speak different languages, and write code in different programming languages, to accomplish different tasks, and try to mash their code together and make it work together. The inputs and outputs just won't align in a way that makes coherent sense. It's possible we could map out every input and output in a monkey brain, and find every entry signal in our nervous system, and map connections so that the outputs more or less make sense, but that really only strikes me as possible because we're so closely related to monkeys. I don't see it as concievable for something like, say, an octopus.

I sound a lot more confident above than I really am. I should stress again that I am a high schooler, and I don't know much at all about neuroscience. The above is nothing more than musings derived from common sense, and lacks the nuance of work composed by someone truly educated in the field.

tl;dr, a "smaller" brain simply won't do the same thing without basically starting from scratch to engineer a new brain, if my musings are correct.

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Any-Broccoli-3911 t1_jd2fxr2 wrote

Most invertebrate have an anterior ganglia or central nervous ring that are considered equivalent to the brain, but have typically less than half the neurons.

It's also the majority of animals because invertebrate species are much more numerous than vertebrate.

Cnidaria (Jellyfish, sea anemones, coral) and sponges have neither, so all their neurons are outside their non-existent brain.

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Vis233 t1_jd4j03v wrote

I don’t know how anyone counts neurones, but even vertebrates have lots of them outside the brain. We have the huge junction of nerves called the caeliac (or solar) plexus, as well as cervical, brachial, bronchial, cardiac, coronary, gastric, sacral, choroid, lumbar, venous, pelvic and vesicle plexuses (or is it plexi?!)

Add to that all the other areas where our nerves are bundled together to form the spinal column, ganglia, and all nerve junctions, internal body sensors and external receptors. It has to add up to a huge number of neurones. Has anyone counted up the ratio of all of these to the number of neurones in our human brain? I would be interested to know.

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placidbeans OP t1_jd5p8id wrote

Me too! To me it’s hard to picture at least just vertebrates with more neurons outside the brain then in, I mean how could it run all these systems u mentioned without having more neurons than the actual system needs, or is the reason it is called a neuron because it can function without needing direct signals from the brain?

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