[deleted] t1_iu3wg5t wrote
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UnamedStreamNumber9 t1_iu44pi6 wrote
The wolves of isle royale in Lake Superior are from a small founder population that is badly inbred. The population suffers from a lot of mutations, poor health and low fertility/breeding success. A new male swam to the island about 10-15 years ago and it was hoped the new genetics would revitalize the population; but it’s my understanding it hasn’t really helped. The population is expected to go extinct. All this is to ask, are similar issues seen in the Newfoundland moose population?
chris84055 t1_iu53ixc wrote
Neither here nor there, but the story I've always heard growing up in Northern MN was regarding occasional ice crossings in years where Superior froze. I've never heard stories about swimming out to the island.
Completely unrelated, my favorite Isle Royale fact is that there is a lake on the island. That lake contains an island. That island is the biggest island on a lake on an island on a lake in the world.
UnamedStreamNumber9 t1_iu74060 wrote
Yeah, crossed the ice not swam. In part because the lake doesn’t freeze solid enough long enough reliably for other wolves to make the crossing
[deleted] t1_iu463lt wrote
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datanaut t1_iu4vrqa wrote
If half of the moose died prematurely, then the population is not doubling every generation, it's staying the same. You can't just divide the final number by two to account for that. Agreed with the main point though that it sounds possible.
[deleted] t1_iu50ezw wrote
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I_raped_a_wizard t1_iu44dg8 wrote
And genetic diversity doesn’t enter in to it?
bad_take_ t1_iu45uuk wrote
There is a lot that should still be considered including the effects of limited genetic diversity. This also does not take into account: if this is the appropriate environment for moose, the prevalence of natural predators, the prevalence of disease, how much food is available, human hunters and if the French have decided to wear Moose skin coats or not. Use the math above with caution.
I_raped_a_wizard t1_iu46b9g wrote
Sure, there are countless factors. I was just under the impression that a population of 4 would be wholly insufficient to continue a species.
I’m uneducated on the topic, just asking questions.
Alis451 t1_iu4ot73 wrote
> continue a species.
does not mean without defects, you can definitely continue a species(with defects) for a very long time. Though with proper genetic testing and mating protocol you can restart a human population from just 2 people, but it would take something like 19 generations to provide enough genetic diversity to become strangers again.
The quoted 50 population required is the "safe" number where you don't have to do a lot of genetic testing, nor would you be required to sire ~20ish children per generation.
I_raped_a_wizard t1_iu4qp19 wrote
Oh okay so you could technically repopulate with just two humans if you were to follow certain protocols?
I didn’t know that was possible. Do you know what exactly you would have to do to achieve that diversity again?
HungryHungryHobo2 t1_iu5cxxf wrote
Do you have a source for the "2 people can recreate the population" claim?
Because I've always seen the low range of estimates for human survival saying we need about 5,000 - 10,000 people to have enough genetic diversity to not die out from inbreeding related illnesses.
Alis451 t1_iu5nqqc wrote
50 is the bare minimum to prevent inbreeding related genetic depression naturally. With new genetic technologies and extensive breeding program you can do it with 2, there are MANY thought examples out there where they talk about how bad it would be to try to do this naturally, this video does discuss using genetic mapping to prevent mismatches, there are a few that discuss it being possible naturally but requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of years to work out.
Interstellar used this thought experiment, though instead with 1 women and 5,000 frozen embryos, with strict genetic selection as well, i think to ensure only daughters were born for the first few generations.
Basically a lot of stuff to dig through that just talks about dangers, but not many that actually discuss the actual possibility, and with modern gene editing, the answer is "yes, but..." and depends on the access one would have to said technology. I think I saw somewhere strict genetic control and breeding control for 19 generations(~400 years) to get suitable genetic drift to be strangers again, of which you could get 50 from that would be able to satisfy the bare minimum of stable natural population.
KnoWanUKnow2 t1_iu4go5a wrote
There were no predators on the island for the moose (outside of the brown black bear, which isn't particularly good at taking down a moose). That helped them to quickly reproduce and spread.
The annual quota for moose hunting in Newfoundland is 27,667 animals, and that quote is about 60% met, which means 16-17 thousand are removed every year. Of note they weren't hunted at all (legally) before 1930.
LiquorEmittingDiode t1_iu4iaft wrote
There's actually no brown bears here in Newfoundland either, just black bears and coyotes. Neither of which are particularly good at taking down an adult. There used to be wolves, but Wikipedia tells me they went extinct in 1911 which doesn't leave much room for interaction between the species.
KnoWanUKnow2 t1_iu4j5jo wrote
And coyotes only came over in the 1980's, so they didn't affect the founder population at all.
LiquorEmittingDiode t1_iu51w0t wrote
I always found that pretty amazing. Coyotes have existed in north america for over a million years and they happened to finally make it to this island just a few decades ago.
[deleted] t1_iu4pky5 wrote
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Brandon432 t1_iu4ry5w wrote
Ursus arctos is a species properly known as the brown bear. It includes a bunch of subspecies: Himalayan Brown Bear, Atlas Bear (extinct), North American Brown Bear (aka “grizzly”), Kodiak Bear, Eurasian Brown Bear, and others.
“Grizzly” is a colloquial name for two subspecies (if you count the extinct California Grizzly). The species is brown bear. “Brown bears” definitely exist.
[deleted] t1_iu5h48v wrote
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[deleted] t1_iu51ut7 wrote
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[deleted] t1_iu58oak wrote
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Brandon432 t1_iu4srkv wrote
This is a perfect answer to OP’s question “is it possible?” The back of envelope exponential population model above gives an estimate that is the same order of magnitude as and also exceeds OP’s datapoint before accounting for drag factors.
“Did it produce?” is a different question
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