Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow: Thoughts on Metal Gear Solid and The Illiad References

Submitted by outsellers t3_116qbfw in books

I recently read Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow by Gabrielle Zevin and I truly enjoyed reading it. It’s a five ⭐️ book in my opinion.

The main reason I liked it is because of the theme of the book - which is two friends that create video games together. However there are two things that kind of bothered me about it. I’ll focus on these since it’s already gotten many rave reviews:

  1. On Metal Gear Solid

I was an avid player of Metal Gear Solid. The video game, and creator Hideo Kojima, gets a solid shout out early on in the book. I was ecstatic when this unfolded.

Zevin gets it right that the purpose of the game was to avoid fighting as much as possible, avoid war. But then she describes the game as “boring.” Which is not how I would have thought to describe the game. I would maybe say frustrating, in terms of its hard to figure out.

In my opinion it speaks to the difference between a gamer and a non gamer.

I also find it strange she chose this adjective for this game, given that there is a chapter devoted to anti-gun literature where shooter games are referenced as the shooters game of choice.

Additionally she hates on Madden Football pretty hard?

  1. On the Illiad

She ruins the ending to The Illiad and completely spoils how it ends for one character. I want to read both The Odyssey and The Illiad and when I got to this part I was like… come on….

It’s a great book, but often times it checks the same checkbox each and every time.

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-rba- t1_j98fpos wrote

The Iliad is, what, 2700 years old? I think spoilers are fair game at this point. :)

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Pigs_in_the_Porridge t1_j98g400 wrote

Yes. Good grief. Complaining about the Illyad being spoiled is like a satire of spoiler culture.

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aprettylittlebird t1_j9bsr10 wrote

I am cackling that OP is mad about spoilers to…a literal thousands year old work. Like this is a joke right? 😂

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Bridalhat t1_j9anpaz wrote

Also the outline of events would have been known by Homer’s audience. At one point Homer switches to second person with Patroclus and it’s pretty much him saying “you’re about to die, yo.”

(Incidentally Hector, Sarpedon, Patroclus, and Achilles all seem to know they aren’t long for the world for various reasons.)

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outsellers OP t1_j98uy2c wrote

Homer’s works are on millions of peoples to-read list, and without them we wouldn’t have gotten books like, the song of Achilles, Circe, or any other of modern adaptations. Both of Madeline Millers books are on my To-Read list, but I wanted to read Homers works first.

It is also still heavily used in modern TV shows, movies, etc. just because something is thousands of years old, does not mean is not relevant.

The amount of books and film that is still based on these stories today, or books that simply draw influence from them such as this one, shows that this book is still being read over and over again.

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llama_raptor89 t1_j98xlkk wrote

All of those things are true and are even more of a reason why it’s ridiculous you consider discussion of those works to be a spoiler. The reading experience of Homer’s works won’t be diminished because you know the plot points ahead of time.

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outsellers OP t1_j98y7hd wrote

It is not discussion of the works, which you are reducing it to, but a flat out spoiler of how it ends for a main character (Hector).

The two works are gigantic, and there is a lot that can be told, but if you’ve ever been part of a book club, it’s pretty customary to relay some plot points, but NOT the ending.

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llama_raptor89 t1_j9921q6 wrote

Nah, sorry, this is like being upset because someone referenced the end of Romeo and Juliet.

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TantamountDisregard t1_j9d090n wrote

She assumes her audience will have basic awareness of one of the most well known stories ever written.

The idea of spoiling the Iliad lmao. Should she basically not write of any written/spoken work of art in case she spoils it for the audience?

Really think about it for a minute OP.

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Tuhks t1_j99ejql wrote

I want to read the Bible. I swear to god if anyone spoils the ending for me…

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Aerosol668 t1_j99ju1i wrote

The main character dies near the beginning of the sequel, but it kinda sets it up. Gets a bit samey and repetitive after that, except the ending, which is insane.

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jeffythunders t1_j99bmed wrote

Just because you enjoy Metal Gear Solid doesn’t mean that everyone does and it definitely doesn’t mean they’re wrong or a “non gamer”. One of the main themes in this book is “We’re all having different experiences” and I think that was lost on you

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outsellers OP t1_j9apvbf wrote

A book dedicated to video games, and someone that campaigns on "video games are the best way to tell a story", should 100% steer away from calling Metal Gear Solid "boring."

Metal Gear Solid is one of the best representations of a real life example of the type of video game she was trying to create in these books. Its basically a movie and video game in one.

Her consistent need to promote political ideology, such as using the term "white boy" repeatedly, or, especially on guns, should be more consistent with her video game research. It's to be expected that she would hate on Football games, Halo, etc... but it would have been nice to deduce what her actual experience with the games were, aside from ... the Oregon Trail

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NTDenmark t1_j9gxu42 wrote

Video games are like the worst medium to tell a story in, LMAO. What makes a game fun to play doesn't necessarily translate all that well to good writing.

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Calamity0o0 t1_j98ss1h wrote

It's wild to me that you are claiming a book written like 2000 years ago was spoiled for you lol

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Brizoot t1_j9ch7i4 wrote

The story comes from the early iron age ~2800 years ago and is set at the end of the Bronze age ~3200 years ago.

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masoyama t1_j9941j8 wrote

Authors shouldn’t have to write down assuming their readership is uneducated.

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philosophyofblonde t1_j9aaypa wrote

Spoiler for The Bible: Jesus dies.

I don’t see how you could go through western life without picking up on the plot just by cultural osmosis.

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future_shoes t1_j9an56o wrote

Not to continue beating on you about The Illiad "spoiler" part but that is just a really strange thing to be upset about. Hector's death and the Trojans losing is something that is/should be safely assumed to be known by general public and is fair game as a literally reference. It's on the line with the Don Quixote fighting windmills, Dr. Jekyll being Mr. Hyde, Beowolf killing Grendel, the ending of Moby Dick, Dracula being a vampire, etc.

Also on a side note, I don't think many people actually intend to read the Illiad or Odyssey straight through, they are massive books which rely heavily on knowledge of ancient Greece and Greek mythology for you to fully understand them. Most people read excerpts in an academic setting or are familiar with the general series of events (like Hector dying and the Greeks winning) through their ubiquitousness in other more modern works.

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ViolinistPerfect9275 t1_j9dpu9u wrote

>Don Quixote fighting windmills, Dr. Jekyll being Mr. Hyde, Beowolf killing Grendel, the ending of Moby Dick, Dracula being a vampire

Maybe chuck up a spoiler warning next time smh

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Bridalhat t1_j9aoo8t wrote

Which incidentally is how most people in antiquity interacted with the works! Festivals would have contests for the recitation of Homer and bards would choose sections that suited their talents, and stories that take place in and around the Trojan War were ripe for adaptation by tragedians (various Iphigenias before the Trojan War, some Ajaxes during and Aeschylus’s Myrmidons took place during the Iliad, and the Orestian cycle after). On top of that people would order only certain books of the Iliad and Odyssey (Iliad II the most popular then and least popular today). Most educated people probably sat down with the entirety of Homer eventually, and many people had it memorized, but most people’s first interactions with the Trojan War myth were piecemeal.

Spoilers are so, so beside the point.

ETA: you mentioned people not reading Homer through all the way. Even if they did they wouldn’t be getting the whole story! The Iliad starts in the ninth year of the war (so no judgment of Paris, no abduction of Helen, no sacrifice of Iphigenia), and takes place over a few weeks and ends with the death and funeral of Hector. Achilles and Ajax deaths and the Trojan horse and fall of Troy all occur offpage between the Iliad and the Odyssey. These were only episodes in a much larger story (and I don’t even think the so-called epic cycle covered all of it).

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outsellers OP t1_j9ap94r wrote

Exactly she assumes her audience is dumb, and won't read it. The reality though is that it has half a million ratings on Goodreads. She's basically calling people dumb by spoiling the Illiad, that's what people aren't understanding.

This book has been called pretentious many times, and I tried to steer away from that train of thought throughout reading it, but the fact she just throws that out there is what justified my thought on this.

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future_shoes t1_j9aqwxx wrote

Exactly what? Also I don't get how she is calling someone dumb by "spoiling" the Illiad. Wouldn't it be the opposite of calling someone dumb, isn't she assuming you have some basic knowledge of the Illiad? Would she be calling someone dumb if she referenced Moby Dick by saying that someone's obsession will lead to their down fall like it did for Captain Ahab?

Also, I don't think the Illiad can really be "spoiled". The whole thing was written with the understanding that the audience already knows all the events and the outcome. It would be similar to say someone is spoiling a story about the Titanic by saying the boat sinks. Or someone referring to the story of Job when talking about a series of tragedies that befalls a character.

Edit: an additional thought. If you do intend on reading the Illiad then she actually did you a favor. Like I said the Illiad is written assuming everyone knows the outcome. This makes the Trojans and Hector an even more tragic series of figures as you know they are doomed. Homer uses this knowledge of the reader to make a better story.

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Bridalhat t1_j9b4ykk wrote

Homer never says that Astyanax, the son of Hector, is doomed, but the scene where he is scared of his father in a helmet and Hector takes it off and talks about how he hopes his son has a happier life than him is 10x more affecting when you know that won’t be the case.

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pauvrelle t1_j9g1f8p wrote

You were doing great, but this is the comment that gives it away that you’re a troll.

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mdpaustin t1_j998sy5 wrote

The author doesn't state this, the character in the situation does. You may be better served by thinking about the viewpoint character that is making that statement and why the statement is true - for them, instead of holding onto a belief that there is only one valid opinion of the game that is true for all people (and characters).

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six_seasons_ t1_j9d0wcp wrote

I loved this book. Finally a story about deep creative partnership that stays true to that concept

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