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JusticeCat88905 t1_isb5blj wrote

Reply to comment by BreakingBaldAmirite in Finished a fantastic new book - Of Boys and Men: Why the Modern Male is Struggling, Why it Matters, and What to Do about It. by Dawens

Yea actually. Basically it comes down to asking yourself why you believe the things you believe, and where those beliefs come from. You will find that the same structural institutions that men struggle against are the same ones reinforcing their beliefs that make them unable to struggle against those institutions effectively. Being a misogynist makes your life harder, being a homophobe makes your life harder.

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BreakingBaldAmirite t1_isb8fj9 wrote

> Yea actually. Basically it comes down to asking yourself why you believe the things you believe

The absolute fucking demon that you are who thinks only people that believe certain things struggle, and end up with mental health issues and suicide.

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JusticeCat88905 t1_isb9aji wrote

At no point have I said this what a wild leap to take. The reason this person sees the left as “attacking masculinity” as a problem is because he sees traditional masculinity as the default rather than something socially constructed and most of the “lefts attacks” are simply challenging that construction as being the default and rather than questioning the legitimacy of traditionalism as the default their reaction to these “attacks” are to dig themselves further into the anti social behaviors that make them already so harmful.

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BreakingBaldAmirite t1_isb9u9l wrote

"It's all your fault lol".

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JusticeCat88905 t1_isbaz5y wrote

No it’s patriarchy’s fault but systems exist on both a systemic and individual level. Individuals can’t do much about changing systems without first changing their mind and organizing with eachother to change systems.

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BreakingBaldAmirite t1_isbb76h wrote

So true bestie, we will not work on the issues such as suicide, and focus on your rhetoric, which is "stop being a misogynist and I get to decide what that is". Which will: get us nowhere, do the opposite of saving lives (but I can tell you've managed to abstract such petty things).

I'm glad I get to get some fresh air and see some real people later tonight, the internet is exhausting and I can easily see how it drives people into insanity.

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JusticeCat88905 t1_isbbdkc wrote

So you think fighting “the lefts attacks on masculinity” is doing anything about suicide? Have you read this guys post?

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BreakingBaldAmirite t1_isbby6i wrote

No, I think that guy is trying to sell books, and doesn't care either. I'm challenging your specific comment, and never even implied I agree with the original post.

Thankfully, a demon waving the red or blue flag doesn't blind me to them being a demon, desperate to feast on my blood.

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JusticeCat88905 t1_isbcnud wrote

The ideas Patriarchy instills in men harms men full stop. That’s the argument.

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BreakingBaldAmirite t1_isbicbc wrote

So you're just gonna strip the entire bit where you say "be nicer to women and everything's gonna be better!", and the "maybe if they weren't supportive of the patriarchy they'd stop suffering!", as if it's not the entire reason I challenged your take in the first place? Heavily implying that the people who suffer, kill themselves, or express their frustrations in some way are actually just bad people (of course this will be a "leap" in logic for you, even if it's the logical next step). Then you had that weird bit about homophobia as if homosexuals aren't in even bigger danger of self-harm, carefully exposing the internet bubble you apparently live in, possibly due to being banished from Earth a few thousand years ago.

> The ideas Patriarchy instills in men harms men full stop.

Guys, it's the patriarchy, but it just happens to be that the line between the suffering and the beneficiaries can be drawn at an economical class level better than at a sex level.

You don't understand why these young men suffer. You don't understand (or care) why they're in pain and most of all you're concerned with your own goals. Ironically, this it the same level of compassion they get in their daily lives, and why they suffer in the first place.

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JusticeCat88905 t1_isbkvki wrote

So most of the first part is just absurd and doesn’t even address anything I’ve said really. To jump from me saying “behavior enforced and rewarded by patriarchy harms men” to “I think men who kill themselves are bad people” when at no point have I even discussed suicide, and there are huge gaps that you need to fill to get from A to B just saying “that’s the natural conclusion” isn’t enough when you don’t even understand the point I’m making.

What’s funny about you identifying class as being more impactful than patriarchy is you ignore than patriarchy is a product and tool of class oppression, which is why consciousness is required to overcome these issues, because they are largely products of the contradictions between a class society and liberation, and even seeing that requires at least a basic level of class consciousness and or historical material analysis

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