Submitted by TheThinker12 t3_z5yz84 in dataisbeautiful
Comments
Zagacity t1_ixz5l7b wrote
Well, I understand that you could believe this but this generally isn’t true.
Poor is always relative to the currency of the same country.
Maybe a poor person in the USA would be considers rich in South Asia or west africa. Bit the poor us Citizen neither works abroad nor can he afford to travel.
Also are there more criteria’s aside from income. Health systems, infrastructure, education.
While it is definitely true that the income per capita in USA is one of the highest, the USA lacks definitely at more than one of the other fields.
macdelamemes t1_iy2shrh wrote
Exactly. Bottom 10% in the US make 4k USD/year. 300 dollars in the US means you don't have enough to rent even the cheapest shitty room in a big city, let alone afford food, transportation, healthcare etc.
Meanwhile 300 dollars per month in Brazil for example, while being far from ideal, will probably be enough to get you a roof over your head and enough cheap food, meaning you'll be poor but not homeless.
Doesn't mean Brazil is better than the US, but it's nonsense to compare income distribution without taking into acount purchasing power parity
40for60 t1_iy3ppgf wrote
The bottom 10% would not be people in the work force or primary earners. More like part time people and people on goverment assistance. Poverty in the US is classified as anyone who can't participate in normal activities not people who can't buy food and clothing. Also because the US doesn't have a VAT and the sales taxes are low the PPP is actually much higher then just about all countries.
macdelamemes t1_iy3ulkn wrote
I don't know if you know what PPP is bit it's definitely not much higher in the US than it is in just about all countries. https://data.oecd.org/conversion/purchasing-power-parities-ppp.htm
40for60 t1_iy3vj9n wrote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
Yes it is and on top of the PPP the US doesn't have a VAT so the consumption tax revenue is 50% less then most all of the other OECD's while the income taxes on the top earners are higher. PPP is not a issue in the US neither are social safety nets for the very poor. The US system favors flexibility and a progressive tax system over security and a regressive tax system.
macdelamemes t1_iy45ind wrote
Again I don't think you understand what we're talking about... This is a link to GDP PPP. I'm not saying the US sucks I'm just saying 100 dollars in the US buys less stuff than 100 dollars in Indonesia.
40for60 t1_iy45raq wrote
and you earn a lot less in Indonesia, great to go visit with your US income but hardly a demonstration of buying power for a citizen from Indonesia.
Ikkon t1_ixz7u9a wrote
As far as education is concerned, America always ranks as one of the best countries in the world, both when rating public schools and higher education institutions. In case of the later, America is rated MUCH higher than any country other than the UK. America has the most prestigious universities in the world, even smaller American school rank higher than top universities in other countries. Life expectancy is one of the weaker aspects of America, but still, it ranks as above average on the global scale. And I don't understand the infrastructure aspect. Besides passenger rail, most of American infrastructure is great.
America as a whole ranges from being the best to being above average. Comparing it to a third world country in any way is simply incorrect
folstar t1_ixzn7az wrote
Public education? We don't crack the top 20 and it is getting worse.
Life expectancy. Kind of funny to use the global scale instead of comparing to other OECD countries, especially while claiming NOT a third-world country. Then add in our voracious health spending while leaving people without basic care. It's not a pretty picture.
Infrastructure. Besides passenger rail... cycling, walking, buses, and everything else that isn't a car.
Funny enough, these three all have something in common. We spend a shitload of money on each for worse outcomes. But since $ big, we call it a win- USA! USA! USA!
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-ranks-27th-for-healthcare-and-education-2018-9
Ikkon t1_ixzxmbp wrote
When it comes to education in OECD, the US ranked 19th in students skills, ahead of France and Spain and just behind Norway. And the difference between the highest rated countries are tiny. America scored 495, Austria 491, France 494, Norway 497, the UK 503, and the best country is Estonia at 526. So American students perform at the same level as western European students. For comparison, Mexico scored 416 and South Africa 390.
When it comes to educational attainment, so population with at least upper-secondary education, America scored 8th, ahead of Finland, Switzerland and Germany and on par with Canada.
https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/education/
>Kind of funny to use the global scale instead of comparing to other OECD countries
Because when you state a country is a "third world country" you have to actually compare it to third world countries. By being well above global average the country cannot be a third world country. When it comes to life expectancy America is on par with Eastern EU, which is still one of the richest regions in the world.
Life expectancy in America is 78.9 years, the average for central Europe is 77.27 years, and the average for the entire EU is 80.5. Japan, the highest rated OECD member is at 84.4. World average is 72.75, and DR Congo, an actual third world country, is at 60.97. So America is above average on the global scale, average for the OECD, and significantly better than actual third world countries.
https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/health/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_life_expectancy
So no, I wouldn't call America a third world country. It is a very rich country with some issues.
trenomas t1_iy0wygd wrote
The US is a big place. Most of our public schools are rather poor in all the metrics that matter. It's a patchwork of infrastructure that prioritizes wealth. Most of the US's systems, for low-income individuals, undermines success and embroil them in debt and incarceration, systems that empower the wealthy.
Look at cancer alley. Look at Flint Michigan. Look at overpolicing in communities of color by white officers. Look at the crumbling rail systems that keep getting sidelined in favor of car infrastructure despite the objective efficiencies in a rail economy.
For some it really is comparable to a third world country. That's not to say we are or aren't, because again the place is huge.
[deleted] t1_iy3oso3 wrote
[removed]
[deleted] t1_ixzihbm wrote
[removed]
[deleted] t1_ixzdj07 wrote
[removed]
Ikkon t1_ixypqmu wrote
I wonder if I’m reading this correctly.
American 40% is on the same level as British and Canadian 50%
While American 20% is lower than Canadian and British 20%
So does that mean that the top 60% of wealthiest Americans are richer than the top 50% of wealthiest people in Britain in Canada, while the bottom 20% poorest Americans are poorer than the bottom 20% of poorest British and Canadians?
ChuTur t1_ixysidy wrote
So it means at that income level 40% of Americans make that or less. However at that same income level 50% or Canadians and British make that much or less. So for that middle income area the US generally has a higher percentage of their population making more than Canadians and British.
However as you described at the low end incomes the US has a similar or larger proportion of people with very little or no income at all.
It’s tough because you’re comparing percentages with each other and percentiles are kind of funny.
ChuTur t1_ixyslnv wrote
It doesn’t say who is wealthier just if there are more people in a higher or lower income bracket or not.
XPlutonium t1_ixyzpd2 wrote
Income and wealth are different
Consider Netherlands. Probably the lowest Gini income but also highest Gini Wealth.
Bull_City t1_ixz0lpq wrote
I’ve found this interesting after living overseas. The US has some of the highest average incomes, like our top 20% make gobs compared to other developed places. This chart shows that.
But like you said, if you look at wealth numbers (I’d argue the much more important number) the US is woeful for how much money is made. It’s like a revolving door of spending with the wealth accumulated very very unevenly. I lived in NZ where the average incomes are much lower than the US but the median net worth of a Kiwi is double that of the US. (Google both and adjust for exchange). What was crazy is how much you can see it walking around everyday. Or Norway, where the average person there has a network of nearly $300k thanks for the sovereign wealth fund.
Idk I feel like the US prides itself in our high incomes when we should be maximizing national wealth distribution.
Ikkon t1_ixz4n7y wrote
I’m not sure if looking at wealth is that good of a way of judging prosperity of a country and wellbeing of its citizens.
When looking just at median wealth, people in Portugal are wealthier than people in Germany, and Germany and Greece are about equal. Sweden, Ireland and the US are all very low, and average person in Norway is poorer than people in the UK or France.
I think average wealth can get pretty distorted by things like house value, since places that rank as the wealthiest usually also have really overvalued housing market
Bull_City t1_ixzdr5y wrote
That’s a fair point. It’s prolly a mix of each tbh, like wealth and income to your point.
But I’d recommend visiting some of these other countries I mentioned if you haven’t. In the US the disparity in both income/wealth is crazy whichever you want to use.
Like your average Norwegian or Kiwi is much happier than your average American on most any happiness measure. You can just see the prosperity walking around compared to the US where you’ll see a Ferrari roar past a homeless tent. That shit just doesn’t happen in most countries we’d consider our peers in either wealth or income.
So I know wealth distribution has become a highly propagandized word in the US, but figuring out a way to at least get basic services to everyone would go a long way, whether taxing and providing services or figuring a way to get wealth sloshing around more evenly.
[deleted] t1_ixz2lu0 wrote
[deleted]
Bull_City t1_ixzeet7 wrote
Totally agreed. After living in New Zealand it was eye opening to see all the things I was told could never work like higher minimum wage, universal healthcare, lots of paternity leave, lots of time off, high worker rights, etc because communism never works. It does, like it’s not perfect, but the homeless in New Zealand still look more prosperous than the US working class which is kinda fucked because most Americans consider themselves the richest country on earth even if they are on the low end here.
It has made me really jaded coming back to the US. Like it does work, just people here have been beaten down by Cold War propaganda to the point it’s the national narrative/culture or something. Idk, I’m emigrating this year because of it. Moved back to be close to family, but I cant get over seeing how fucked it is everyday and being told I’m the asshole for thinking we should tax people so they can afford a less luxury car so the homeless guy can get some mental health services.
40for60 t1_iy0jvcq wrote
New Zealand and other OECD aren't taxing rich people more for the social programs, instead they have higher regressive consumption taxes (sales tax) that affects the lower income people more. New Zealand's population is 5 million and they don't have borders like we do with Mexico. Being a warm island, gated community, which is dependent on the rest of the world for just about everything has its advantages, why can't everywhere be just like NZ?
Bull_City t1_iy0vbga wrote
You clearly have never been to NZ lol it ain’t warm. And its much less expensive/complex to immigrate to NZ than to the US based on my experience. Especially if you are skilled. The US is extremely gate keepy (we built a fucking wall and check what it takes to immigrate as a skilled worker). And fine, tax people for services they need instead of giving them extra money to buy a luxury vehicle. In the US is cheaper to buy a luxury car than a place like NZ, but health insurance is $120/year for a non-citizen, free for citizens. So fine tax everyone more. They still get shit most Americans scrounge for.
But whatever man, I don’t honestly care about what excuses the US has for itself. Plenty of other countries with land borders have strong social safety nets and less inequality. NZ is just my experience. My brother lives in Germany and has had the same experience, he ain’t coming back. I’ve traveled to and met plenty of people from other OECD countries and everywhere I look they aren’t perfect, but closer than the US in terms of taking care of their citizens. They certainly aren’t jumping at the bits to immigrate.
But no need to worry, I’ll say you’re right. No way we can have good safety nets and have to have this level of inequality for all the reasons you’re talking about. All the more reason I am happy to be leaving it.
40for60 t1_iy0zjk4 wrote
"It’s much less expensive/complex to immigrate to NZ than to the US based on my experience. Especially if you are skilled." This is because they have a problem keeping their population up and have a immigration system in place to prioritize English speaking people with skills. The US doesn't have these discriminatory policies and doesn't have a problem attracting people or keeping them. As far as the "USA" goes people really should be looking at states because each state has their own polices just like each OECD country does. Could the US make a very discriminatory immigration policies and keep non white people out, sure (this is what Trump wanted to do), could the US jack up the sales taxes on the poor just to give them the same health care as they do through Medicaid, sure, would the VOTERS(we) vote for these, no. Also NZ doesn't need to spend money on defense or be engaged in the worlds politics, NZ is a like a gated community who can ignore all the worlds issues, something the US has chosen not to do. Comparing the two is ridicules. BTW Germany tried to pull this and their policies are now causing chaos in Europe.
ninjewz t1_iy0iz67 wrote
The US is just really inefficient with how our income is utilized. According to this chart I'm around the 90% mark as a sole income earner (my wife doesn't work due to medical issues) and I don't feel very secure. If I was by myself I'd be okay but adding all her expenses really sucks up a majority of what would be my expendable income.
A lot of it really comes down to having no (or unreliable) safety nets. If she was at least getting SSDI that she should be getting then we would be in a much more comfortable position but instead I'm footing the bill for our crappy system.
a1b3c2 t1_ixz1acw wrote
Why are the lines not evenly spaced
Low-Fisherman-9468 t1_ixzuqpc wrote
Why most people with degrees or skills in demand migrate to the US.
United States has a migration surplus with every nation but a few I believe. This has knock on effects on exacerbated this as more innovation and work is created by said people.
trenomas t1_iy0xa4d wrote
The brain drain is a dangerous game. It means we need to keep offering tax writeoffs to corporations, who already pay disproportionally small taxes, and it means that if we lag behind the cutting edge for a moment, the bubble collapses.
40for60 t1_iy3p73n wrote
US corp tax rates are on par with the rest of the developed world.
ItWouldBeGrand t1_ixz898k wrote
Is neat. I’d like to see a comparison of this to chart gross income or taxation in terms of percentage. That’d be a cool comparison.
trenomas t1_iy0xtm1 wrote
That and living expenses make a huge difference especially at the lower levels.
[deleted] t1_ixytujs wrote
[deleted]
[deleted] t1_ixyuqbb wrote
[removed]
joongoon543 t1_ixzxwpn wrote
I think this graph is before gov transfers. After adjusting for tax brackets and welfare programs most of these countries will have much smaller gaps. For example, the US is slightly above middle of the pack for inequality after taking into account welfare and other transfers but looks much worse before adjusting.
trenomas t1_iy0xxdf wrote
For income. That ignores wealth inequality and living expenses.
J-D_M t1_iy0wie6 wrote
🤔 These are percentiles within a given country (levels of income with that country). A much better graph would be income "buying power" brackets compared to cost of living. 😯
👍 i.e. Divide annual income by the annual cost of living (buying power) within a country, for much better level-setting and comparisons. 💪
77Gumption77 t1_iy5b9uv wrote
Does this include welfare benefits and public spending?
In the US, the poorest 20% or so receive free food, healthcare, subsidized housing, and other welfare benefits. In some cases, this also includes social security, pensions, Medicare, and other spending (e.g., senior citizens).
Y1nchuba t1_ixyu3xs wrote
I don't know the truth data clearly, but I guess it's a little bit higher than the truth. (Personally)
RickJWagner t1_ixywur1 wrote
Wow. Income equality in the US is not so bad.
Interesting!
trenomas t1_iy0xprq wrote
This chart ignores wealth inequality, which is a wildly different statistic and more closely tied to class stratification and class mobility.
It also ignores the absurd distribution taht is a vast majority of americans have less than one hundred thousand in assets while a select few literally possess 1 Billion times as much power.
This chart is literal propaganda to. Look at the website.
Kellykeli t1_ixz0a5d wrote
I really dislike that vertical scaling
Whiplash1199 t1_ixz4cae wrote
Trying really hard to keep Africa on the board here. We go from 1k increments to 10k.
Mr_Axelg t1_ixzocce wrote
It's logarithmic scaling, perfectly appropriate for this data.
ThePrem t1_ixz0fws wrote
“The USA is a third world country”
I think people forget the standard of living is just higher here. Someone in lower middle class/ poverty in the US generally has a better quality of living than most other countries. Not comparing apples to oranges until you look at something like this.
Im also not sure things like cost of living are included in this comparison