Submitted by larsattacks94 t3_ycog36 in explainlikeimfive
Dingo_The_Baker t1_itnqa7p wrote
Reply to comment by EscapeRich9091 in eli5: how long would power stay on if the power company abandoned their post? by larsattacks94
I actually work in Texas power industry and remember when that storm hit. After it was all over the CEO held a meeting and congratulated everyone for their heroic work. I work a menial desk job, so afterwards I actually pulled my boss aside and asked her what he was talking about.
The dumbed down version that she gave me is that if the grid overloads and starts to fail, the power surges through the lines and burns them up. Imagine thousands of miles of high voltage fuses burning all across the state. As it was places were without power for days or maybe a week. It they hadn't been able to manage the load, it would have been months upon months to rebuild the system.
immibis t1_ito2dfn wrote
(I do not work in the power industry but) the lines wouldn't burn up, as they have fuses for the worst-case scenario. In the worst-case scenario, power lines wouldn't burn up but they would still have to drive around and replace all the fuses.
As I understand it, the real problem in a major event is that all the safety systems trip. You get these cascading failures where the computer at each power plant and substation is like "oh fuck, something's really wrong, fuck it, I'm out" and then disconnects whatever section it's responsible for. No actual damage (that's the point of the safety systems), but everything is shut down and disconnected.
E.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003#Sequence_of_events - according to this list, you had a few individual things disconnecting themselves and the rest of the grid took up the slack, but then within a few hours it got to a point where there wasn't any slack left and then you get this big cascade where everything that trips due to overloading causes something else to overload, and it just spirals until everything is disconnected. I assume the "heroism" at your company is related to the fact this didn't happen in Texas, so whoever still had power lines could still get power.
And then they have to figure out how to restart the whole grid from zero without tripping all the safety systems again. Did you know that most power plants need electricity to start up, which apparently makes it quite an ordeal? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_start
> To provide a black start, some power stations have small on-site diesel generators, ..., which can be used to start larger generators..., which in turn can be used to start the main power station generators
Fun fact: high voltage fuses have explosives in them to make sure they disconnect properly, as high voltage can jump through air if the gap isn't wide enough.
Dingo_The_Baker t1_itogwh4 wrote
>I assume the "heroism" at your company is related to the fact this
>
>didn't happen in Texas, so whoever still had power lines could still get power.
That's what my understanding was. We were very closes to catastrophic failure of the whole system and the techs out in the freezing cold working with the control centers to stop the complete failure and limit the damage. If were going to call anyone "heroic" there it would be the techs in the field. Its not like Texas has anyway to clear or salt the roads for them to get where they needed to go.
At the time it was happening all i knew is that my power was turning off and on every 45 minutes and my boss basically told our entire team to sit home and ride out the storm as our job functions were not needed that week, even if we would have had power to do them.
Also, fuck all the politicians that refuse to upgrade our system.
Summersong2262 t1_itolwjj wrote
It's a heavily deregulated grid, after all. Private industry at work.
SnooFloofs3486 t1_itp0xd6 wrote
This is the core problem. It's a single interdependent system. With no central planning like we have in other regulated electric systems the Texas failure is expected.
The reason is that generation is HIGHLY capital intensive and the generation needed for the tail risk events is uneconomic to own for anyone, but very economic for the system. It's this way because as long as that marginal generator exists the market prices stay too low. So on is own the generation isn't going to run many hours and will never make enough revenue. But in a systemic look it becomes economic because it's value to the system during tail events is so high and the entire system that benefits pays for the value during all hours.
In competitive deregulated energy markets this is the natural outcome - under building generation for peak or design day loads.
685327594 t1_itpjzw6 wrote
The majority of the country is deregulated.
SnooFloofs3486 t1_itq8i2h wrote
It doesn't happen overnight. We're seeing this in Texas and California now. It takes time for these markets to mature.
Incidentally they're also more expensive than regulated integrated markets
685327594 t1_itqajtp wrote
The issues in Texas and California are more to do with their political posturing than deregulation.
SnooFloofs3486 t1_itqrt2n wrote
They're polar opposites politically. It's an inherent part of the nature of deregulated generation. It's just a pretty straight forward math problem to show that there is a financial disincentive to maintain enough generation for low probably events when the generation is viewed in isolation.
This is compounded by the use of gaussian statistical models for nongaussian probability - like forecasting weather extremes. So the extreme events are underestimated.
But most importantly it's also compounded by the cost of capital. In rate of return regulated markets the cost of capital is lower across the board (that's why they provide cheaper service). Cost of capital is much lower for the capital projects targeted at the low probability events. Those are risky investments in deregulated matters and require high returns. So they don't pencil out as viable commercial projects. In regulated markets those facilities are ordered by the regulators and have a guaranteed opportunity to earn a fair return. The fair return on equity being much lower because of the low risk.
The result is that regulated markets with integrated utilities and good regulation tend over time to both lower cost and more reliable.
xmaddoggx t1_itpbi0p wrote
Yeah your Texas politicians and by extension the majority of the residents in your state are to blame. Texas is unregulated because they want to be independent from the federal regulations.
Dingo_The_Baker t1_ito3pgn wrote
TIL. Like I said I'm a desk monkey trained to do a specific task, and my boss gave me the dumbed down version that I'm probably not recalling 100%.
[deleted] t1_ito6oxz wrote
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[deleted] t1_itoj54i wrote
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685327594 t1_ito5kdh wrote
They don't have fuses, lol. Computers monitor the load and trip the lines off it it gets above what they are rated for.
immibis t1_ito6lk2 wrote
Are you sure they don't have fuses as well?
SnooFloofs3486 t1_itp14lt wrote
Every wire is a fuse with enough current.
685327594 t1_ito6uh2 wrote
Yes, 100% sure.
operationfailed t1_itoj0w0 wrote
I’m guessing it varies by region but in the places I’ve worked in Canada the power lines are all controlled with circuit breakers which in turn are controlled by older electro-mechanical relays or newer digital relays. Also a lot of lines have fuses protecting them on top of that
dbuzman t1_itpa5rk wrote
Yeah, they are wrong. The pole right by my house has a fuse on it.
685327594 t1_itpjm45 wrote
Your pole isn't a high voltage transmission line.
fupa16 t1_itokg57 wrote
This is Texas we're talking about remember. They're light-years behind having advanced technology like fuses.
2daysnosleep t1_itor29z wrote
😂
dbuzman t1_itp9rsp wrote
Some lines do have fuses. There is a power pole about 50 feet from my house and it has a fuse. I have been on the front porch when the fuse blew. It was very loud. Just google power pole fuse and look at the pictures.
Hon3y_Badger t1_itpspar wrote
Yeah I don't think most people realize that the TX grid being shut down in 2021 was the "good alternative;" the other alternative being decidedly worse.
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