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Twin_Spoons t1_itr6rtd wrote

There are two main drivers of GDP growth: population and technology.

Population is straightforward. GDP measures how much "stuff" we make. The more people, the more stuff. So long as populations continue to grow (which is not guaranteed and somewhat of a different issue from economic growth), this will contribute to GDP growth. You can remove the influence of population by instead considering GDP per person ("capita")

The second driver of GDP growth is technology. As we learn better or more efficient ways to make stuff, or even invent all new categories of stuff to make, we will make it more stuff with less effort. GDP per capita has been growing due to technological advancements pretty much continuously for the entirety of human history (local exceptions like the "Dark Ages" in Europe ignore the Islamic and East Asian worlds, which were doing just fine at the time).

So it's possible that aggregate GDP may fall in the future if populations start shrinking rather than growing. However, we can reasonably expect that we will retain knowledge of all the productive technology we have today - it would take some sort of true cataclysm to undo that - so GDP per capita will only fall if we spend less of our collective time working. We haven't yet gotten to a point where decreases in labor time have outpaced technological innovation - people have generally pursued the higher standard of living rather than increased leisure time - but it's possible in principle.

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tky_phoenix t1_itsat5q wrote

A good example of this is Japan. They have a shrinking population and in order to keep growing the economy they pushed for more women to go working and elderly to keep working longer. In addition they are trying to slowly allow more foreigners into the country. This is meant to either stabilize or even grow the workforce. At the same time they have to work on digital transformation as their productivity is really low.

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FleetAdmiralFader t1_itsv9ak wrote

Japan is a wild land of contradictions. The general public considers them some of the most technologically advanced nations and yet they are extremely conservative and resistant to change culturally. It's almost like they create efficiency tools exclusively for export and domestically simply accomplish everything by shear force of will and scale of manpower because god forbid they change an existing process.

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tky_phoenix t1_itt0gh4 wrote

A lot of it comes from a “no man left behind” mentality. They won’t stop using something if there is still somebody using it. Took them forever to stop good old pager services. On the one hand you have pretty advanced payment methods, super high tech toilets. On the other hand they still use faxes a lot. I worked in a business where global asked us to join their digital marketing campaign to attract customers to events. We had to tell them “sorry, unless you fax the info, you won’t get much traction here” and we were not kidding.

Lastly, Japan is/was great with hardware but they are incredibly bad at software. Their website design is - by European or North American standards - incredibly bad.

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MedusasSexyLegHair t1_itscboe wrote

One example of where a drop in GDP might increase standard of living would be if we actually used our science and technology to build lasting, durable, repairable things, instead of fast fashion trends and planned obsolescence.

Also if we were to focus more on renewables instead of single-use consumables.

A third might be developing efficient localized production rather than using inefficient long-distance shipping (but that's more difficult since currently it's much easier to produce things efficiently at certain locations and ship them, than to develop efficient localized production).

In such cases, we could produce less, and work less, overall (lower GDP) and yet still have more and live better. That's kind of a path to post-scarcity economy.

But until then, GDP growth is still preferable. Given how consumption-oriented society currently is, a drop in growth or worse a decrease, leads to lower standards of living and unnecessary increases in scarcity.

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ReneDeGames t1_itsri8j wrote

Long lasting isn't necessarily useful in a fast development environment, computers have roughly doubled in power to cost ever 2 years for decades now, its cheaper in all ways to keep building new computers rather than makes ones that will last.

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MedusasSexyLegHair t1_itsz3s3 wrote

To some degree. I remember the hot days of the early '90s, when your computer was certainly obsolete by the time you got it home from the store. And each new development opened up new possibilities (multimedia! networking! etc.)

But we're way past the point of diminishing returns on utility there quite awhile back. For typical use - write an email, view a PDF, maybe use a word processor to write an essay or a spreadsheet to calculate your credit card debt - a 98-era computer could do all of that just fine. We don't need 64GB of RAM and a 3.20GHz processor for that. Mostly we only need more speed and space because the software has become so bloated and inefficient - because it can, due to the hardware.

However, as a gamer, new systems are cool. That's why in 2016, I retired my decade-old 2006 PC and built a new one. Six years later, I upgraded the graphics card and added a new M2 SSD for more speed. AAA games run great and the CPU and RAM never come near getting stressed, either from games or my (sometimes sloppy) programming projects and data migrations. I don't foresee any need to upgrade for another 6 years. And I'm a hardcore/heavy user. An average person could probably get 20+ years out of a computer if the software bloat didn't kill it.

Similarly, my new smartphone works about the same as the one I bought in 2013. Sure it has higher specs on paper, but messaging someone on it, or getting directions from Google Maps, is no different than it was back then.

But other things I was thinking about were things like appliances and furniture and stuff. A lot of that stuff used to last a lifetime and pass down to your heirs. Even with electronics, once upon a time, you'd call in a radio repairman if your radio broke down but that'd be ridiculous now since you could buy a new one for the fraction of the price of a repair or upgrade. But why not make it to last? Is radio tech really changing that quickly?

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phiwong t1_itr5dg8 wrote

There is no guarantee of GDP (a proxy and not always accurate measure of progress) growth in any particular locality over any particular period of time.

In very broad terms though:

a) populations are still increasing. More people implies more resources to do things. It also implies more people needing goods and services like food, shelter etc.

b) education and healthcare is generally improving. Healthier and more educated populations are expected to be more productive and for longer

c) technological progress and deployment is increasingly global. More efficient and better utilization of resources will generally increase output for a given amount of input

In short, although unlimited growth is not sustainable, there is not any good reason to believe humanity has peaked in terms of producing goods and services. Of course wars, pandemics, asteroid strikes and devastating changes to the environment might one day cause that but that is far beyond anyone's ability to predict.

In the long long term, of course, not even the sun is expected to live forever, so there is probably an end-point to humanity's survival on this planet.

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jawfish2 t1_itrw0iz wrote

I don't know how to get to the five year old level on this... sorry

Classical economics expects growth, forever. Many scientists have complained that this is absurd, and untested, and unprovable, given the laws of thermodynamics and a finite planet. Indeed any observer can see today that our population requirements are bumping up against resource limits and global warming.

Ancient empires grew until they exhausted local resources and then collapsed (OK its much more complicated than that, but still they did).

There is a small minority of economists who examine no-growth and slow-growth, but I don't think they are much heard. I would say they look to something like ecological balance as a sustainable model. The advantages of growth are obvious, but the opposite in a growth-based economy, recession/depression/deflation, are disastrous. Ironically no-growth might make it impossible to get to climate resilience and survival.

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kanated t1_its7oz4 wrote

>Classical economics expects growth, forever. Many scientists have complained that this is absurd, and untested, and unprovable, given the laws of thermodynamics and a finite planet. Indeed any observer can see today that our population requirements are bumping up against resource limits and global warming.

It's not absurd at all because economic models never claimed to be able to predict anything at the time scale where the laws of thermodynamics become the upper limit to growth.

We're hitting resource limits and global warming but all of that has solutions. We could do a full turn towards renewable energy sources right now and economies would still grow. They just wouldn't grow as much, so short term greed doesn't allow it.

None of that is preventing growth. Quite the opposite, right now growth rates are a source of the problem, not a consequence.

>Ancient empires grew until they exhausted local resources and then collapsed

This didn't really happen very often. Ancient empires didn't really have the production capacity to exhaust big resource reserves.

The more common case is that ancient empires collapsed because the resources themselves decreased due to outside factors. War, disease, drought, floods, etc...

You can advocate for slow and sustainable growth all you want. No one's going to say it's not a worthy cause. However, a system that works contrary to human nature is bound to fail and therefore pointless. The solution lies in playing along with human nature, and not against it. Research leads to technological advances that make sustainable energy sources cheaper, and therefore better for both growth and sustainability. Vote for that.

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Peter_deT t1_itsnooo wrote

Loss of soil quality (topsoil loss, deforestation, erosion, salinity) was a major contributing factor to the decline of Rome, the Abbasids and probably a few others. So ecology matters.

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candymannequin OP t1_itry194 wrote

this was one of my favorite responses

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Continuity_organizer t1_itslkng wrote

Totally wrong from an economic perspective though. The poster doesn't even understand what economic growth means.

I would try to explain it to him, but it's quite clear that he's more interested in disagreeing with economists than trying to understand them.

As your own post demonstrates, the biggest problem with trying to teach economics is that people think they already know it.

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candymannequin OP t1_itsmeeo wrote

you must be fun at parties.

do you have something positive to add to the conversation or are you hear to bandy insults instead of answer questions?

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Continuity_organizer t1_itsnh2a wrote

Your post doesn't belong in this form because you're not actually asking a question that you don't understand the answer to.

When you say "I don't understand..." you actually mean "I don't agree..." which is why a ridiculous answer that no economist or economics professor would actually give you is the one you like the best.

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candymannequin OP t1_itso2mi wrote

how can you see in my head?! oh right, you can't. as numerous people have helpfully explained to me here, I was misunderstanding what gdp increase really means. thanks to their helpful replies, i now understand why gdp has obviously trended upwards, and that temporary setbacks, and economic ups and downs obviously wouldn't affect that.

I guess what was throwing me off is less economics and more the general "corporate" idea that companies should turn record profits year after year... which doesn't seem feasible to me.

thanks for your.... bad faith assumptions. maybe you are the one that doesn't belong on this sub?

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ShalmaneserIII t1_itsqnkg wrote

> I would say they look to something like ecological balance as a sustainable model.

Except this is not remotely how ecology works. Species grow and use all the resources they can gain, then generally die out when circumstances change or disasters strike (or both).

The entire planet is composed of endless cycles of boom and bust- why not human society?

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jawfish2 t1_itxcapf wrote

Well presumably there would still be market-like conditions and individual segments/companies/individuals would go through boom and bust. But you are right, I think, to ask how the whole ecology could be prevented from self-destructing. A look at the actual ideas is in order.

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fish-rides-bike t1_its7t8g wrote

And ironically the wrongest one. Maybe you didn’t want it explained, you wanted your preconceived answer affirmed. No scientists have said anything about unlimited economic growth in their capacity as scientists. Thermodynamics is not a relevant consideration when looking at resource abundance. And population is not “bumping up against” resource limits or global warming — its plateauing, mostly due to contraception, education, prosperity, and female independence.

Economic growth does not require more physical resources. For example, the computer gaming industry contributes significantly to American GDP, but uses negligible physical resources. The digital music industry — same.

Due to technology and language we can go on accumulation knowledge and thus growth forever. Ancient empires collapsed due to lack of knowledge

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candymannequin OP t1_itsmjy9 wrote

I like a lot of the answers. enjoying the variety. thanks for adding to the conversation.

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BaldBear_13 t1_itr2uvf wrote

increasing GDP means economy produces more, which means increasing quality of life, even despite increasing population. Most people consider that beneficial.

Periodic economic downturns might be beneficial in the sense that they kill off the old and inefficient companies, and enable newer and more advanced companies to replace them, which strengthens the growth in the long term.

Modern macroeconomic controllers generally try to extend the periods of growth, and minimize both depth and duration of downturns. I do not think anybody among them expects uninterrupted growth forever.

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matty_a t1_itrij26 wrote

> Periodic economic downturns might be beneficial in the sense that they kill off the old and inefficient companies, and enable newer and more advanced companies to replace them, which strengthens the growth in the long term.

They are beneficial to the overall economy over the long term, that is true. They are not beneficial in the short term to many people though. People lose their jobs, lose their homes, go hungry, etc.

They also vote out the leaders who are perceived to have caused the downturn, which is why leaders do everything possible to try and avoid them.

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BaldBear_13 t1_itrnfh6 wrote

Very true. Tradeoff between short-term and long-term is one of the key issues in an economy.

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[deleted] t1_itr5d3n wrote

[removed]

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explainlikeimfive-ModTeam t1_itr72zd wrote

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ap1msch t1_itrreto wrote

There's a lot in the equation, and much of it is not resolved. There used to be the idea that housing prices would never fall, and then 2009 happened. Our economy and workforce still hasn't adjusted to the fact that technology has increased productivity significantly, and yet we work MORE rather than LESS. There's a lot of momentum in the workforce that doesn't get resolved until a major event or uprising.

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kalesaji t1_itrrew4 wrote

The reason growth is positive for a country is thst growth allows current work to be more valuable then past work. The work done today is more efficient, more valuable then the work done 50 years ago. This is reflected in growth. Now, try to see the opposite case. Let's say what you are doing today is less valuable then what your parents did 50 years ago. Would you be doing it? Or would you move on to do something else? This can be seen, for example, in service jobs. When a sector doesn't grow significantly enough, people will no longer want to be associated with it. They won't want to work in it (dead end job), they don't won't to invest in it (no return on investment) and they don't want to buy the products and services (same old, we allready have this, it's becoming boring) which leads to the sector declining steadily.

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ArkyBeagle t1_itrtd92 wrote

GDP increasingly represents abstract activities, stuff that barely has any physical presence. For that reason, there's no physical reason that those activities it should ever really hit a limit. Watching four Netflix movies doesn't cost anyone that much more than watching two.

Demand may hit limits before supply does. Economists assume this isn't true but we don't really know.

Whether there's growth or not is really more about planning how we're going to set up governments to run. A government over the same land for a non-growth society looks very different from one in which there is growth.

One thing that caused the Great Depression was a decline in the supply of money relative to what it "should" have been. That caused deflation.

In that case, there was unnecessary material hardship purely because of basically an error. We live with the memory of the Depression and try to avoid that.

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BakedPaint t1_itrwpbh wrote

There's at least two different issues in your question:

- the economic cycle (regular repeating of periods of growth and recession) is caused mostly by debt; when interest rates are low the economy can grow on credit, but as the amount of debt grows so does the risk for lenders, who will in turn demand higher interest rates if they are to take on more credit, which slows down the economy until risk goes back down, repeat. In this sense, recessions are "beneficial" in that they are needed adjustments to over-leverage.

- Since the industrial revolution there has been a long term growth trend driven by technological innovation, basically improvements in our ability to do more with less, even once you cancel out the short-term debt-driven booms and busts. Economists tend to project this trend into the future indefinitely, but - and this is just my opinion - future innovation is not guaranteed, and the period since the industrial revolution is a giant anomaly in the larger historical context. It is true though that our societies absolutely require this type of growth; without it, the only way for any business to succeed is at the expense of some other business.

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nednobbins t1_itrx7rp wrote

No reasonable economists claims that GDP will grow steadily but there are good reasons to think it will grow over the long term.

GDP is the total output of a population. There are basically two ways it can change; you can change the number of people or you can change the output of those people.

In the long run, populations go up. People have been talking about variations of the Malthusian trap for centuries but the world population has increased by nearly 100x since then and growth seems to be accelerating rather than slowing down.

Individual productivity also seems to be on a firm upward trajectory. This is primarily driven by technological advances. A modern combine can harvest 200,000 pounds of corn an hour, that's about a 2000x improvement over working by hand. I have a 3-d printer on my desk that can build arbitrary shaped objects in a few hours rather than taking months to build prototypes. And we're all aware of the blistering rate at which electronics improve. There's no obvious reason to think this technological advance will slow down any time soon.

An other factor in individual output is hours worked. That's gone up a little but nowhere near as much. A few people are able to sustain 80 hour weeks but most people work 27-50 hours per week There's a lot of opposition to working 60+ hours per week and many people argue that we shouldn't even be working 40 hours per week but very few adults reasonably expect to work less than 20 hours per week. So we're unlikely to get much productivity reduction out of change in hours worked.

Is this desirable? Absolutely. Increased output means that we can get more of the things we want and need. For many people on earth that still means basic things like food, clothing and shelter. Many others require things like improved transportation, healthcare and childcare. Even the rich have desires that they can't meet yet.

The bigger questions are if we can support sustainable growth and how we distribute that increased output. If we could get infinite economic growth with no pollution, resource depletion or other externalizations it's hard to imagine why we wouldn't but that's not the real world. We absolutely have to deal with these issues. Either we deal with them preemptively or we wait until we're forced to deal with the effects after the fact. It looks like we're on a course to do a little of both. Resource distribution is also a very difficult problem. Nobody has proposed a system that everybody agrees with. We'll probably keep trying new systems indefinitely in the vain hope that we can find such a system.

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BillWoods6 t1_its90wu wrote

> ... the world population has increased by nearly 100x since then and growth seems to be accelerating rather than slowing down.

It isn't.

> Peak population growth was reached in 1968 with an annual growth of 2.1%. Since then the increase of the world population has slowed and today grows by just over 1% per year.

Ironically, 1968 is also the year The Population Bomb was published.

> By the end of the century – when global population growth will have fallen to 0.1% according to the UN’s projection – the world will be very close to the end of the demographic transition.

https://ourworldindata.org/future-population-growth

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Burnsidhe t1_itskegf wrote

GDP measures economic activity, not the actual 'health' of the economy or how well people are living or how financially secure they are on average.

It's not really the best economic indicator, but its the one everyone points to.

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4510 t1_itslivx wrote

Here's the thing about extrapolating trends: it requires that things are in the future- as they were in the past. In short time periods (1 year, 5 years, etc) things generally change slowly enough that the trendline often holds (i.e., the near term future usually looks a lot like the recent past). But as you start talking about things like the timeline of an empire/civilization (measured in decades and hundreds of years) things tend to be less stable and more chaotic rendering that trendline useless.

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EscapeRich9091 t1_itspnrj wrote

GDP has to grow so the market grows so the ownership class keeps getting richer.

This then becomes a general message of "GDP will always grow" because if people believe it might not, or won't, it doens't.

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explainlikeimfive-ModTeam t1_itsyt8w wrote

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