VengefulAncient t1_j5yj6n0 wrote
Reply to comment by fenrir245 in Dell UltraSharp U3224KB 32-inch 6K monitor is official with a built-in 4K webcam and Thunderbolt 4 port. by RenegadeUK
> Fine, it can be plastic as well. Happy? Does that change anything?
Yes. It disproves your false claim that "matte screens have glass on top because polarizer is always made of glass". Though by the end of your comment, you're already back to pretending that's the case. Does that actually work on people? I kinda always assumed it wouldn't.
> That looks like matte to you? Since when do matte displays have razor sharp reflections?
That's not "razor sharp" lol. And we've established that matte screens reflect to some extent as well. I can see myself in my matte screens when they are turned off - they don't behave the same way when turned on.
> If you haven't noticed, display tech has progressed quite a bit since then, and we used laminated displays now.
Which changes... what, exactly? Adds glass to matte displays? Nope.
> And as for peeling off layers, what exactly is up with all the "matte removal" processes available online? Are these companies putting on "natively matte" panels, then putting glossy glass on it, and then again putting a matte coating on it?
I mean... that's exactly what Apple has done, as shown in the video I've linked. Matte panel, then glass on top, then "anti-glare" coating on top of glass (which doesn't work very well but it gives their marketing another buzzword). Yes, they fuse them nowadays instead, but the layers remain the same.
Stripping the top layer from the panel and exposing the fragile inner layer doesn't make it the same as an actual glossy screen. Again, glossy screens have a glass (or hard plastic) on top of the panel (or fused with it), which generates most of the reflections. This exposed inner layer is still semi-soft, easily damaged, and will get absolutely destroyed by cleaning solutions (meanwhile, actual glossy screens can be fully cleaned with a microfiber cloth, especially since the glass allows them to be coated with an oleophobic layer - standard on most phones nowadays). It is not glass. People in the comments on that video even recommend getting a protective film for it, because it will get easily damaged otherwise. Hint: that does not happen with glass.
Yes, it's reflective, congratulations - but that's not at all what a glossy display on my MacBook or my Windows convertible is like. You can clearly feel the glass on them if you touch them. You won't feel it on that stripped display. In fact, the way it looks strongly reminds me of monitors sold in the early 00s when LCDs were still new and people didn't even know terms like "matte" or "glossy". Those monitors scratched extremely easily and their reflectiveness was somewhere in between real matte and real glossy displays and was annoying to both camps. They don't exist anymore nowadays.
> Same colorspace, same brightness, same resolution, same refresh rate. What more do you want?
Official specs that confirm that and not just your word.
> I just used max brightness for the worst case scenario. In most cases even that's not required.
Yes, except I have yet to find these "most cases" with this Macbook whenever any lighting is involved.
> Except I don't have to. I cant just tilt my screen away from light sources to completely eliminate reflections.
> tilt my screen away
> tilt my screen
It took over a decade for TN screens to be finally phased out and humanity breathed a collective sigh of relief once they no longer had to constantly adjust their screens to avoid colour distortion and brightness changes. But not this person! 🤡
> Perceived vibrancy can be wildly different even if the colors measured at the surface of the panel is same.
Oh okay, so we're firmly into snake oil territory now. Instruments say the colours are the same, but "perception" isn't.
The funniest thing is that you are sort of right - except that "perception" has nothing to do with the actual image quality. Why do you think glossy magazines existed? Humans just like flashy, shiny surfaces. They are perceived as expensive and high quality. Which is exactly why almost every shitty low-end laptop has a glossy layer to mask how awful their panels truly are. That's been the go-to tactic throughout the entire era of 150 nit TN panels being standard on laptops.
> So the sensors are inside the display as well. No problem in making them matte now, given the "extra glass" layer is unnecessary, right?
Except that you forgot that touchscreens are meant to be touched. You know, swiping gestures and all that. Glass makes that easy and pleasant. Cheap plastic or, worse, those tacky "matte" screen protectors? Horrible, your fingers literally stop in their tracks.
> I said the screens are already topped with glass or plastic even for matte, and you literally proved it for me with your videos
Incorrect. Nothing I linked "proves" that matte screens are topped with glass. And plastic film ≠hard plastic layer (which is what's found on cheapest glossy displays).
> And yet it has literally never come up once anywhere, outside of matte vs glossy arguments for monitors. Even people clamoring for small phones massively outnumber any such people.
Really? Never came up? You must be quite young. The generation that grew up using resistive matte PDA touchscreens complains about it to this day.
> The panel manufacturing process is the same, they aren't going to spin up a whole other pipeline for glossy polarizing layers.
- That comparison video you've originally linked allegedly has exactly the same panels but with a "different finish" (let's roll with that for the sake of the argument). So either they're actually different panels, unlike what you claim, or... changing the "finish" type isn't that difficult after all. You know, like sticking a glass layer on top.
- If there's so much demand for glossy screens, why are they still running the matte pipeline at all?
- We've already established that the polarizing layer isn't glossy or matte. But anyway, according to you, matte surface is created by sticking an additional layer on top of glass. So... every display is originally glossy anyway, and it should be incredibly easy to convert it to matte.
Doesn't track.
> Are you seriously claiming that glass can't be matte? Are you just trolling at this point?
Yes, glass can be matte, and if grandma had wheels, she'd have been a wagon. It doesn't matter how many layers of "anti glare" you coat it with - it's still glass, it generates reflections. The only way for a panel to not be glossy is to not utilize glass at all.
> Yep, you're trolling.
Trolling so much that I've paid extra and ordered my previous laptop from a different country back in 2011 just to make sure I get a matte version because the local SKUs of that model only had glossy. All to troll one random on the internet a decade later. All my clients that specifically demanded a matte screen for their home and office setups I've built for them were trolling, too. It's a conspiracy against you! Not a wide preference for several objective reasons, not at all.
> No one with working eyes thinks this and this are the same.
Here is the Surface Pro 9 subpixel grid. What's wrong? Why is it like that? It's glossy! It's supposed to be crystal clear!
> Also "avid readers" of Notebookcheck would very much know they always point out the "graininess" of matte displays vs glossy ones, but it's already confirmed you're just trolling.
Yes, they also call it a "screen-door effect". Not having a lowest bidder display helps: my monitor definitely doesn't have that. But I've certainly seen ones that do. That doesn't mean this graininess is inherent to matte screens.
fenrir245 t1_j5ykqss wrote
> Oh okay, so we're firmly into snake oil territory now. Instruments say the colours are the same, but "perception" isn't.
Ah yes, professional monitors having to come with massive hoods to block out ambient light, studios having to be painted in neutral gray colors to prevent the brain from automatically correcting color casts, and mastering standards specifying bias lighting specifically to enhanced perceived contrast are all snake oil.
> Why is it like that? It's glossy! It's supposed to be crystal clear!
They do have a whole ass Wacom pressure sensitive layer on top, but go on, find more excuses and deflection as to avoid answering why your "uncoated native matte" is somehow even more blurry (even with your surface pro 9 example lol) than the supposed "gloss is just glass over matte" screens, in literally all cases.
Yep, a troll indeed.
You want to prove your point? Go ahead, show one laptop with a matte screen that has at least equal sharpness to the panel I showed you. Should be really damn easy, given the Zenbook isn't an expensive laptop and doesn't really use high end panels.
Until you can't, you'll remain a troll.
VengefulAncient t1_j5yohj5 wrote
> Ah yes, professional monitors having to come with massive hoods to block out ambient light, studios having to be painted in neutral gray colors to prevent the brain from automatically correcting color casts, and mastering standards specifying bias lighting specifically to enhanced perceived contrast are all snake oil.
No, because all those factors change actual lighting. You know what those professionals also don't like? Reflections. That's why they have those hoods. And a lot of other professionals also just opt for matte screens instead. (Or both.)
> why your "uncoated native matte" is somehow even more blurry (even with your surface pro 9 example lol) than the supposed "gloss is just glass over matte" screens, in literally all cases
Because you are taking pictures of sub-millimeter particles with average equipment through a surface that diffuses light and not through clear glass. That matters for seeing individual subpixels on photos like that - and doesn't for the actual picture, because your eyes are looking at the result of those subpixels combined. If the screen actually appears grainy, that means that its surface is just low quality coarse garbage. And guess what, I've seen that with glossy screens too!
fenrir245 t1_j5yqc31 wrote
I don't need your excuses.
If you are right and I am wrong, you should be able to find at least one laptop with a matte display that is at least as sharp as the one I posted. Especially when there are laptops with matte displays that cost several times that of the Zenbook.
Unless you can post one such laptop from the immense database of Notebookcheck, it's all hot air and trolling.
VengefulAncient t1_j5yr6dp wrote
That's not an "excuse". It's an explanation. These photos are always going to look like that because of the physics you yourself mentioned. That doesn't mean that the actual screen will look grainy. Because most don't.
fenrir245 t1_j5ys7by wrote
Except most glossy display notebooks are as sharp.
Given it's so easy to find the glossy panels with sharp subpixels, it should be even easier to find the matte panels with sharp subpixels, given your claim. Especially when many of them cost far more than the laptops I've listed, so no excuses about "low end panels" either.
VengefulAncient t1_j5ysmlb wrote
> it should be even easier to find the matte panels with sharp subpixels, given your claim
Already explained to you why that's not going to happen.
> Except most glossy display notebooks are as sharp.
Sharpness is determined by resolution, not by how individual subpixels look under a microscope. Do your eyes look at individual subpixels? No.
fenrir245 t1_j5yt77a wrote
> Already explained to you why that's not going to happen.
How convenient. Almost as if matte causes graininess by its nature, and glossy displays do not have "native matte" surfaces. If the "diffusion" is the problem, then all the matte panels would be far sharper than the glossy panels, as by your definition glossy panels have an additional layer on top of the matte panel.
> Do your eyes look at individual subpixels? No.
Look up the concept of subpixel antialiasing. Also that LG Gram, Zenbook and Vivobook are all 1080p, so that excuse won't fly either.
Again, I'm waiting for that mythical matte panel with subpixels as clear as almost all the glossy laptop panels.
VengefulAncient t1_j5yv7g0 wrote
> How convenient. Almost as if matte causes graininess by its nature, and glossy displays do not have "native matte" surfaces.
Almost as if actual graininess has nothing to do with matte and everything to do with low quality screen materials.
> Also that LG Gram, Zenbook and Vivobook are all 1080p, so that excuse won't fly either.
What excuse?
> Again, I'm waiting for that mythical matte panel with subpixels as clear as almost all the glossy laptop panels.
I never promised to deliver it. All I've ever claimed is that even glossy screens can have a blurry subpixel array on those photos. But sure, here you go: Acer Aspire Vero AV14-51. Definitely a matte screen (see full review). What now?
fenrir245 t1_j5yyi6o wrote
> Almost as if actual graininess has nothing to do with matte and everything to do with low quality screen materials.
The laptops I listed all have much higher quality screen materials than laptops costing at least twice as much?
Surely even you think you're reaching.
> I never promised to deliver it.
Yes, because it completely counters your absurd claim of "all glossy is just glass over matte".
> All I've ever claimed is that even glossy screens can have a blurry subpixel array on those photos.
But they can also have sharp subpixel arrays, something almost non-existent on the matte ones. You seem to be avoiding this fact quite conveniently.
> But sure, here you go: Acer Aspire Vero AV14-51. Definitely a matte screen (see full review). What now?
Great. Let's look at the review again.
> It is possible to use the screen outdoors, provided that the sun isn't overly bright.
So by reducing the matte haze to improve the sharpness (still not fully, you can clearly see the graininess at the edges), you already lost the diffusion advantage, like what happens with all those "semigloss" and "2H" panels. Thanks for proving my point.
In the end, glossy panels have more sharpness and perceived vibrancy than matte panels, while matte panels are more usable in harsh lighting than glossy panels. Just as is common knowledge for literally anyone but you apparently.
VengefulAncient t1_j5z302d wrote
> The laptops I listed all have much higher quality screen materials than laptops costing at least twice as much?
Again. Subpixel array photos do not reflect actual graininess. I have never conceded that point, nor will I. You are the only one riding on it here.
Here's what the HP ZBook Firefly 14 G9 review has to say: "Subjectively, the panel offers excellent picture quality because even bright surfaces do not look grainy despite the matte coating." And yet, its subpixel array looks like this. But go on and keep trying to convince me it's connected lol.
> Yes, because it completely counters your absurd claim of "all glossy is just glass over matte".
So now I'm supposed to argue points that go against my own claim and experience? Do you even know how arguments work?
> It is possible to use the screen outdoors, provided that the sun isn't overly bright.
They say that for literally every display that isn't a phone display with 500+ nit brightness. Try someone who doesn't know their lingo inside and out lmao. It's very clear from the photo that the display looks excellent outdoors.
> you can clearly see the graininess at the edges
Of course, it doesn't sit well with you to just admit it's as clear as the ones you've linked, there has to be a defect...
> In the end, glossy panels have more sharpness and perceived vibrancy than matte panels
No, sorry. "Sharpness" is determined only by resolution, and "perceived vibrancy" is snake oil. We have tools that return objective numbers (deltaE, colorspace coverage, brightness, PPI calculators), and anyone who wants to deal in facts will stick with them.
> Just as is common knowledge for literally anyone but you apparently.
The same "literally anyone" who tried to convince me that 1080p at 24" is "totally enough" and there's no point in trying to get a rare 1440p 24" monitor to increase actual sharpness? Yeah, I'll totally listen to those people.
Also, thanks for the article! So many great points to disprove your bullshit:
> Some displays use a very mild matte anti-glare treatment for the screen surface. They have a very low haze value of around 2-7%. This describes the level of diffusion of light by the screen surface, with most matte screen surfaces having a higher haze value of ~25% or above. Such displays can therefore be classified as glossy or ‘close to glossy’ as their light emission and reflection properties most closely align with a glossy surface that has an anti-reflective film.
So I was completely right and there are "in-between" screens.
> Some manufacturers offer a compromise between the two – a surface type that is sometimes dubbed ‘semi-glossy’ or that we’d usually classify as ‘very light’ matte. These surfaces are still matte but are roughened up either a little or a lot less, giving them a smoother appearance and making the diffusion of light weaker.
Yep, definitely seen that. In fact, lots of desktop monitors I've dealt with are like that. Including my current one. But since it doesn't have freaking glass, I never see any reflections at all.
> In the past, some manufacturers (most notably Apple with their earlier ‘LED Cinema Display’ series) chose to forgo any anti-reflective treatment and included highly reflective untreated glass as the outermost surface. This was done largely for aesthetic reasons as there is no advantage of this over a properly treated anti-reflective surface when it comes to image quality.
Whoops... they did use glass, and it was for aesthetic reasons...
> Disadvantages of a Glossy Screen: Potentially increased eyestrain due to difficulty focusing on image through reflections
Hey look, this guy really knows what he's talking about after all! Unlike you.
> It’s important to note that screen surface texture is also important and there are some models that buck the trends for ‘image smoothness’ expected from their haze values. Screen surface is a complex 3D structure with many layers and there’s a lot more to consider beyond a single haze value. Good examples would be some 23.6 – 27″ IPS-type ‘4K’ UHD (3840 x 2160) panels such as those used on the Dell P2415Q or ASUS PG27AQ. These are light matte anti-glare (relatively low haze value), which preserves image vibrancy and clarity, but don’t have a particularly smooth surface texture.
Would you look at that, nuance! Actual understanding that there are different materials utilized with different properties!
My dude, you just dug your own grave.
fenrir245 t1_j5z7uuf wrote
😂😂😂
This guy really thought this and this are equally sharp.
Damn, no wonder you can't tell the difference between matte and glossy sharpness.
> "Subjectively, the panel offers excellent picture quality because even bright surfaces do not look grainy despite the matte coating."
Did you ever try to read the full sentence?
DESPITE THE MATTE COATING
Oh golly gee, I wonder why they needed to make that distinction, that too on literally every laptop with a matte panel.
> Subpixel array photos do not reflect actual graininess. I have never conceded that point, nor will I. You are the only one riding on it here.
> So now I'm supposed to argue points that go against my own claim and experience? Do you even know how arguments work?
Exactly lol. Simple physics dictates a grainier screen will have grainier subpixels by definition. There's no panel in the world that looks grainy but has completely sharp subpixels under a microscope.
You keep claiming all screens are matte by default, hence matte shouldn't have an effect on the graininess. And yet, you haven't managed to produce one matte screen that can match the sharpness of glossy panels, let alone exceed them in sharpness.
But then again you literally can't tell the difference, so you're incapable of arguing anything in the first place.
> They say that for literally every display that isn't a phone display with 500+ nit brightness. Try someone who doesn't know their lingo inside and out lmao. It's very clear from the photo that the display looks excellent outdoors.
So does the Macbook Air, so I guess matte doesn't do shit regarding reflections?
> Of course, it doesn't sit well with you to just admit it's as clear as the ones you've linked, there has to be a defect...
Yeah, only person who would claim that would be someone with very bad eyesight, someone who never bothered to open my links, or someone deliberately trolling. It's like saying 720p is equally sharp as 4k.
> No, sorry. "Sharpness" is determined only by resolution, and "perceived vibrancy" is snake oil.
Lol, that's why the Eve 4k with glossy was more sharp than the one with matte? One 4k was different resolution from other 4k?
Sharpness is determined by a lot of things, and the graininess of the screen coating is one of them.
You're scraping the bottom of the barrel there, buddy.
And as for "perceived" being snakeoil, diffused light is the same thing as non diffused light, eh?
Lol, do you even know how those metrics are measured? By literally sealing the display area being measured to prevent ambient light leakage.
By your logic setting the colorimeter 5 feet away from the display will give the exact same readings. Some "facts".
> The same "literally anyone" who tried to convince me that 1080p at 24" is "totally enough" and there's no point in trying to get a rare 1440p 24" monitor to increase actual sharpness? Yeah, I'll totally listen to those people.
And who exactly is claiming that? Making up arguments because no real ones available?
And as for your laughable "dug your own grave":
You: All panels are matte by default!!! Glossy is just layer over matte!!!
Article: Matte or glossy depends on the treatment of polarizer layer.
You: See I was right!!! You dug your own grave!!!
Looks like along with poor eyesight your also got poor reading comprehension, and in the end all you could do to salvage it is to say some matte screens are light enough to reach somewhat close to glossy screens, lol.
EDIT: Oh yeah, weren't you claiming "perception" was snake oil? Got on that train very quick when you found "light matte" is close to glossy in that regard lol.
VengefulAncient t1_j61dsqj wrote
> This guy really thought this and this are equally sharp.
Hello? That's the whole point? You are the one banging on about "perceived" things - here is Notebookcheck, telling you that despite how the subpixel array looks, the image is not grainy. But that's not convenient for your argument, is it?
> DESPITE THE MATTE COATING
So? People love sticking to established lingo even if it's wrong.
> And yet, you haven't managed to produce one matte screen that can match the sharpness of glossy panels, let alone exceed them in sharpness.
I did, but you ignored it because it's inconvenient.
> So does the Macbook Air, so I guess matte doesn't do shit regarding reflections?
LOL no it doesn't. This is how it looks outdoors. Half the screens is obscured with the reflection. And here is the Acer - not a hint of glare.
> Lol, that's why the Eve 4k with glossy was more sharp than the one with matte?
But... it isn't.
> By your logic setting the colorimeter 5 feet away from the display will give the exact same readings. Some "facts".
... how did you come to this conclusion?
> And who exactly is claiming that? Making up arguments because no real ones available?
Can link you dozens of threads on reddit where people keep droning on about this. Here is the latest one.
> You: All panels are matte by default!!! Glossy is just layer over matte!!!
So we've established from the article that it's a spectrum rather than binary. I explicitly mentioned that the "stripped" panel without the outer layer isn't the same as an all-out glossy panel with a glass layer, and that it falls somewhere in between. My argument still stands: to create an actual glossy panel, you need a layer of glass/hard plastic on top. Like MacBooks, smartphones, etc do. If you don't have that, your screen isn't glossy, end of story. It's just somewhere on that spectrum in between - and I've taken apart enough broken LCDs for hobby projects to know that not every one of them looks like this with the top layers stripped.
> EDIT: Oh yeah, weren't you claiming "perception" was snake oil? Got on that train very quick when you found "light matte" is close to glossy in that regard lol.
Except that's not "perception", that's literally a material with different qualities used and the article you linked states so.
fenrir245 t1_j62ghly wrote
> You are the one banging on about "perceived" things - here is Notebookcheck, telling you that despite how the subpixel array looks, the image is not grainy.
Lol, you yourself kept going on about how "perception" is snake oil, so I gave you an objective method to prove your dumb point.
If matte is not the cause of graininess, then there will be matte panels with equally sharp subpixels like there are for most glossy panels. All your excuses whining about "subpixels don't matter" are just that, excuses.
You keep harping about objective standards, I gave you an objective way to prove it. You didn't.
> So? People love sticking to established lingo even if it's wrong.
😂😂😂
Notebookcheck and "sticking to established lingo".
"Is it me that's wrong? No, it's literally anybody and everybody else including reviewers and manufacturers that are wrong."
> I did, but you ignored it because it's inconvenient.
Lol. Perception isn't "snake oil" anymore?
> LOL no it doesn't. This is how it looks outdoors. Half the screens is obscured with the reflection. And here is the Acer - not a hint of glare.
And you can already see it being all washed out to hell. Perception was only "snake oil", was it?
> But... it isn't.
Uh huh. Someone really didn't watch the video. Probably was too inconvenient for their worldview.
> ... how did you come to this conclusion?
From your logic. deltaE and colorspace don't depend on ambient light, and you keep claiming that's all there is to perception, so it shouldn't matter where I place the colorimeter, right? Any distortion should be snake oil, right?
> Can link you dozens of threads on reddit where people keep droning on about this. Here is the latest one.
So the "popular argument" is one that is downvoted to hell and the rest of the thread is complaining about how there's a severe lack of 1440p 24-inch monitors? Do you know what "popular" means?
> So we've established from the article that it's a spectrum rather than binary.
Lol, no. The "spectrum" is the amount of haze the matte coating is put through, with the lighter hazes coming with less graininess and diffusion but more glare. Almost as if glossy is the end point of that spectrum.
Don't try to pretend your stupid assumptions are valid because "spectrum".
> I explicitly mentioned that the "stripped" panel without the outer layer isn't the same as an all-out glossy panel with a glass layer
Nope, that's something you started wailing on once your "glossy is just matte with glass on top" nonsense failed to prove itself.
> My argument still stands: to create an actual glossy panel, you need a layer of glass/hard plastic on top.
Are you seriously thinking there's no glass on Dell Ultrasharps or Asus ProArts? Are those panels magically glossy now? Oh wait, you did call the matte version of Apple's monitor glossy as well. Guess there's no saving.
No matter the delusion you keep telling yourself, glossy displays do not have anything extra over their screens than matte displays do. Samsung Display showing off "thinnest" laptop panel, and yet it is glossy. One would think they'd be going for matte if matte displays magically have a layer less than glossy displays do.
> Like MacBooks, smartphones, etc do. If you don't have that, your screen isn't glossy, end of story.
LG Gram has no glass and the plastic is flexible. Guess it's matte now, lol.
> Except that's not "perception", that's literally a material with different qualities used and the article you linked states so.
Same deltaE, same colorspace, same white balance, same contrast measured. What now?
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