How do you feel about movies with main stars that were cancelled / or had done nefarious things in the past? I post this after having watched American Beauty tonight.

Submitted by Fischer_Jones t3_11dwxaq in movies

This came up because my daughter was really curious about American Beauty. And she had heard, of course at her age, about all the drama and shit around 'you know who" (voldemort?)

I'm in the belief that despite their real world problems, they still create art and contribute to art. And if we got that cancel culture sensitive to it, we'd be burning billions worth of paintings and millions worth of origional music recordings.

Alot of our heroes did some sketchy shit. But what I try to tell people is it takes a whole TEAM to push something out that might only have a singular face to it. Will you cancel or boycott something for one person that took 40 people to publish publically?

I had a chum, where in the early 2000's, their favorite band as Lost Prophets. Well oh my god, their lead singer made Spacey look like a Salvation Army soup slinger. But, do you stop listening to the band? I mean, there were 4 other people in the band. They also had a producer. Engineer. Label excec. Manager. Do you discredt all of their work because one low life piece of shit does something hyper vile?

I don't. I'll start at house of cards season 1 and drink it all in. It took hundreds of people to get that off the ground, and a hundred more to make it as amazing as it was.

To tie it up, American Beauty is a deeply profound movie. Especially if you're a 40 something middle class American and given Spacey's sketchy shit, I can't let it take away from the efforst of literally everyone else that produced an Academy award winning movie.

I feel the same way about films like 21 or the eary seasons of house of cards. yeah, he was a sketchy shitbag but he was only one person. It takes a hundred people to put that into production for us normies to consume.

A random Riesling inspired rant.

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dow366 t1_jabahgp wrote

Art vs Artist

You can stop the Artist from making new art. But we consumed that art, we enjoyed it. its part of us. You can't just take that out.

If you look deep enough everyone has done sketchy shit.

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HoosierDev t1_jabe6d8 wrote

I think the whole “if you look deep enough everyone has done sketchy shit” is a way of normalizing terrible people.”

It’s more like, If something truly awful comes out then they likely are 100 times worse.

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dow366 t1_jabf7jd wrote

No, what i was trying to say is i still appreciate good art.

For eg: My childhood was Harry Potter. Now we all know what the writer is doing and saying. This doesn't retroactively make Harry Potter bad or my enjoyment of it growing up.

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girafa t1_jabem3a wrote

> If something truly awful comes out then they likely are 100 times worse.

Is that how you want people judging you?

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HoosierDev t1_jabfg6u wrote

Absolutely. If I commit a serious crime like rape or murder I want you to assume that it’s just the one I got caught with. You don’t just one day decide you’re going to rape someone. You build up to that. Guys like Cosby and Spacey were doing things to people for years and years before 1 person stood up. I’m sure some of there worst actions are still hidden.

I don’t get why people think they are guaranteed some sort of due process when it comes to public opinion.

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koalajunction t1_jac0d8p wrote

I agree with you. I was thinking about the Will Smith slap. Not serious crime maybe but someone all of a sudden in front of millions slapping someone else? It is very likely he has shown similar behavior before. In the cases of Cosby and Spacey I Don’t think there is necessarily worse but there is definitely a lot more dark stuff.

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girafa t1_jabgvsd wrote

> If I commit a serious crime like rape or murder

That clearly isn't what dow was referring to when he said "sketchy shit."

You, nor anyone, wishes that all their friends and family think they're 100x worse than whatever their ugliest offense was.

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HoosierDev t1_jabepg0 wrote

I’m friends of the family of one of the accusers of Bill Cosby. The woman was fearful of coming forward. She did because others were and they needed her support. Her landlord then tried to evict her because news media was coming to her apartment without invitation. He friends called her a money grubbing whore, even though she was set for life and already retired. She lost almost all her connections in the industry.

So for me, I feel like it’s a small price to pay to not contribute to the careers of those who’ve done really bad shit. I’m talking rape, murders, beating people, etc.

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I_am_INTJ t1_jabdpj0 wrote

I do not care at all for Kevin Spacey as a person. However, The Usual Suspects is one of my favorite movies and I doubt that ever changes.

However, I am very reluctant to watch anything he's in that I haven't seen before.

You make some excellent points, though, and I agree with what you're saying.

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ThirdOfTheStorms84 t1_jac8bpe wrote

I think this is it for me, if I’m already familiar with the media I’d probably rewatch it, but watching something new would seem wrong. Maybe it’s the fact as someone that buys physical media I have already bought it so rewatching it doesn’t benefit anyone involved.

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iz-Moff t1_jabc1jj wrote

I don't particularly care. I don't wonder if a chair i'm sitting on could have possibly been made by a bad person, it's a fine chair, what, am i going to throw it away if it was? I think that deplorable people can make good work, same as anyone else, and acting is just another profession as far as i'm concerned.

If he's verifiably done something criminal, then let judicial system punish him, me watching or not watching his movies does nothing to uphold some sort of justice or whatever.

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paulwhitedotnyc t1_jabctm4 wrote

I can understand when people choose not to support particular individuals or businesses by refusing to contribute to them financially. It’s effective, sends a message, and is their right as a consumer. However, in cases like your example, there is nothing left to achieve, your support, or lack there of, is insignificant. If someone is able to gain some enjoyment out of the collective work of hundreds of people, at least it’s a silver lining.

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CatFewd2 t1_jabdwyl wrote

My own hypothesis is that this is another instance of people being horrible at nuance.

I.e. "Everything and everyone is all good or all bad."

JK Rowling has donated to a lot of great charities and brought joy to millions of children, AND she's said nasty things about trans people. George Washington fathered a nation that the entire world is probably better off for, AND he struggled with believing in liberty while also enslaving people. Jeff recycles, but not as much as he could.

People are more complicated than just good or evil. It's probably good we couple some morality to art. I just wish our conversation about it wasn't so stupid and childlike.

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BEE_REAL_ t1_jabajiz wrote

There are way worse psychos than Spacey who've made much better movies, and if you can't enjoy them cause of off-screen stuff I think that's totally reasonable, but at the end of the day you're missing out

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oftheunusual t1_jabf0qy wrote

I can separate Kevin Spacey from Sam Mendes and everyone else that made American Beauty the great movie that it is. I like Kevin Spacey's acting, and he wasn't always a terrible person, but he did terrible things that need to be noted. We don't need to demonize the movie because he's in it. It has a lot of commentary on society, and it was beautifully made.

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PrecisionHat t1_jacxk1p wrote

I can understand that separating art from artist is very challenging for some people, but it has never been a challenge for me. A boycott is a personal choice, after all.

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purplegirafa t1_jabd2y5 wrote

I actively avoid Tom Cruise movies because of this. Even though Eyes Wide Shut is one of my favorites...

This topic gives me mixed feelings and I haven't quite figured it out yet.

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ASIWYFA t1_jabdqfu wrote

I haven't been able to watch him in any movies for a while now, which sucks, because I know the MI movies are great. He just creeps me out and I can't get past the fact that he is involved in sketchy shit with a cult and everyone just looks the other way.

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purplegirafa t1_jabhcy9 wrote

Right, he basically trapped Katie Holmes and no one says anything about it. SHE HAD TO ESCAPE says it all.

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DrawnGunslinger t1_jabiwt8 wrote

I don't give a fuck what people have done in their private lives. It's none of my business. I'm only here for the art they created.

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Magnet5150 t1_jabt2jj wrote

Doesn't really bother me tbh

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Twigling t1_jaciyvz wrote

I manage to separate the art from the artist, in other words I'm more than happy to watch Spacey's movies such as the excellent L.A. Confidential, K-Pax, Seven, etc. He was a great actor and there were a lot of other people involved in the making of those movies besides Spacey, should people stop watching them just because of him?

You also have to ask yourself where you draw the line. How many movies should we avoid watching because one person involved in the production has done something illegal?

Look at Die Hard - director John McTiernan has served prison time for lying to an FBI investigator and perjury (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McTiernan#Criminal_charges,_felony_conviction,_and_incarceration), in which case should we all stop watching Die Hard and his other movies? Of course not.

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RyzenRaider t1_jacvd2t wrote

To me, it compares to the nature of their misdeeds and how much they contributed to the art form. I'll discard a shitweasel that has no talent pretty easily. It gets harder when they have amazing or unique talent, because they can offer you an experience or connection that is rare. At that point, it becomes harder to justify supporting them on rational terms.

Kevin Spacey is a fine actor, and very charismatic. But I don't think he pushed the medium in any new direction, so I don't feel all that bad or any great loss about not watching his films.

My moral dilemma is with Mel Gibson. He's an all time great movie star, an amazing actor and a fantastic director. He's also racist, sexist and antisemitic. His outbursts captured on tape are some of the most vile things you'll hear a human being say. But to play devil's advocate, he's also diagnosed with bipolar and has an extensive history of alcohol addiction. So he's prone to poor judgment and wild or unpredictable mood swings, which can include rage. Those outbursts are not necessarily things he's fully in control of. But these are also outbursts that have a continuity over time.

So with Mel, he's an amazing contributor to movie history. He's a rare breed of star, he can play any genre effortlessly, and he's made as a director one of the most truly adrenaline-pumping movies I've ever seen (Apocalypto). I want to keep watching his work. But he's acted abhorrently on several occasions, that I do wonder if I should support his work. The best way I can reconcile it is that he's not always well, and should give him some consideration due to his mental illness. He's also not taken his actions beyond words (to my knowledge). So he's no Kevin Spacey/Cosby/Weinstein with a deliberate, systematic approach to physical abuse.

I think I do draw a hard line at anyone who engages in deliberate victimization/exploitation. Predators targeting people with less power than themselves can just fuck right off.

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k_1181 t1_jad7qyz wrote

I don't give a fuck. If I want to watch something the actor's personal life has zero impact on whether I watch something or not.

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verascity t1_jabeo6a wrote

There are just some actors/artists that I truly can't enjoy as much as I did before learning about their bullshit. I don't necessarily judge other people for still enjoying problematic things (depending -- that whole "standing ovation for Roman Polanski" thing remains super fucking gross), but in some cases I just can't do it. I think Spacey is one of those for me. Like, The Usual Suspects is one of my favorite movies, but I don't think I'd find Verbal nearly as fun now.

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No_Cap_822 t1_jabhlyu wrote

“enjoying problematic things”

But that isn’t what is happening

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ChrisMartins001 t1_jabmyen wrote

I separate the art from the artist. For e.g Kevin Spacey has put in some amazing performances, but we all know what he is now. It's the same with R Kelly's music.

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MandoRodgers t1_jabn5qq wrote

Lois CK is a creative genius so I’ve fully forgiven him for being a weirdo

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claytonianphysics t1_jabnb99 wrote

Slightly off subject, but it reminds me of a topic I once chose for a paper. While her film, The Triumph of the Will is widely considered a piece of brilliant and artistic filmmaking, Leni Riefenstahl created it specifically to glamorize the Nazi Party.

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jolly_rodger42 t1_jacplfy wrote

Its just the free market working as intended.

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apurpleglittergalaxy t1_jad38mo wrote

Depends what they're being cancelled for, I still sometimes watch Kevin Spacey movies despite the fact that he's a sex offender in real life because he's acting as characters that aren't him, I'm not gonna stop watching A Bugs Life, House of cards or Kpax because of his crimes but if people can't bring themselves to watch his movie or TV shows that's their choice but it is just that a choice, on the other hand and I'm probably gonna get attacked left right and centre for saying this but IMO I think anyone who is burning Harry Potter books and boycotting Hogwarts legacy in the nicest way possible needs to get over themselves and get a life lol I could go on about the complexities of JK Rowling being cancelled but I don't fancy getting ripped apart by ten ton of keyboard warriors I do think it is massively mountain out of a molehill that people are not only boycotting the game but are vehemently attacking and targeting streamers and people who play the game it's lynch mob mentality but again I'm not on twitter or Facebook so I'm not familiar with how social media is nowadays but yeah the cancel thing depends on lots of things and it's too complicated to get into.

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MovieCriticsAreSJWs t1_jadksss wrote

Actors play a role/character. It's just a job reading lines that someone else wrote for them. That differs in comparison to singer/songwriters for me who actually compose the music and write the lyrics which are supposedly from the heart.

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LukeKellysLoveChild t1_jaeynbv wrote

I think if we're really honest with ourselves a lot of our lives lie on the foundations of suffering and cruelty that severely surpass the disgusting behaviour that Kevin Spacey has been exposed of. We're all benefiting from the use of copper and cobalt for example. Look at where these come from and how they're produced. I can see the argument for not watching films he features in though. I'd be iffy about watching one of his new films but I don't think you're advancing his career by watching the likes of American Beauty or Reservoir Dogs.

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[deleted] t1_jabdbas wrote

[deleted]

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oftheunusual t1_jabf96s wrote

The fuck?

Okay, but really, I promise to be civil. Why do you think that?

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