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futureygoodness t1_jc6jj1a wrote

Reply to comment by Undaedalus in What is the deal with the NH grid? by decayo

If we updated the grid to bury power lines we wouldn’t have to worry about trees.

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vwturbo t1_jc6oaol wrote

As someone who works in the industry, it gets old hearing that we should just bury the lines. This works in dense areas, but for rural areas (like the vast majority of NH) it is extremely cost prohibitive. Installing buried conduit, manholes, transformer foundations, etc. is often upwards of $200-$300 per FOOT of buried conduit. Even more expensive if it has to be concrete-encased, or God forbid there is ledge (rock) in the way that needs to be hammered out (btw this is New Hampshire, the Granite State, there is ledge absolutely EVERYWHERE). And that doesn't even include the cost of installing (pulling, splicing) the actual cables and transformers themselves.

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rsex77 t1_jc74f6o wrote

Agreed. The only time underground makes sense is in densely populated areas where utilities and ground composition allows it.

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Hot-Specialist-6824 t1_jc7ls94 wrote

New developments can and certainly have put their utilities underground since they're already putting in roads and possibly drainage/sewers. But these eventually lead back out to power lines above ground. That's the case where I live, and I know if we lose power there's probably quite a few who have also lost it.

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schillerstone t1_jcawt8a wrote

What's the cost per foot to trim trees, maintain poles, and respond to downed wires? You need to be able to answer this question in order to assert burying lines is too expensive.

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vwturbo t1_jcbjvzv wrote

The savings on maintenance and repairs over the life of the facilities are, generally, much less than the difference in initial construction costs.

There are also maintenance costs associated with buried infrastructure that you are not acknowledging. Drastic changes in temperature, tree roots, flooding, damage from animals, damage from vehicles, etc, all cause damaged conduit and/or damaged cable, which is usually costly and disruptive to repair. Above-ground facilities are obviously way more exposed and therefore damaged more often, but the repairs are generally relatively inexpensive and simple compared to repairs of UG facilities.

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Jrzgrl1119 t1_jc826ih wrote

I lived in Alaska. The power lines were buried. I did not live in a heavily populated area. There is so much ledge in Alaska! I never lost power the 4 years I lived there and we got a lot of snow.

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vwturbo t1_jcbljau wrote

I'm intrigued by this. Not sure why you're being downvoted.

This is just speculation, but from what limited knowledge I have about Alaska, even though it is not densely populated overall people tend to live in villages somewhat close to each other, correct? Even if a town only has a couple hundred people, if they all live relatively nearby to one another in a village, buried lines would make sense.

Another possible reason, response to downed lines is probably much more expensive and time consuming in such a large and remote area, so the larger upfront cost to bury lines may pay off quicker than in a smaller state like NH.

Are most long-distance transmission lines buried up there? Or just the distribution infrastructure that goes from building to building?

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Cantide756 t1_jc8e93r wrote

Don't forget servicing and flooding of those concrete tubes

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[deleted] t1_jc7mgjy wrote

[deleted]

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fffangold t1_jc7t9nn wrote

Sure. Since you aren't using any electricity during the outage, you won't be charged since you aren't using the electricity that isn't there.

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vwturbo t1_jc7nptw wrote

I’m not saying change is bad lol. It’s obvious our existing system needs help. I’m saying that better tree trimming and maintenance, and more resilient above-ground infrastructure is almost always going to be a better and more cost effective solution for NH than burying cables will be on a large scale.

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Andromeda321 t1_jc6nr4t wrote

This isn’t super cost effective in areas with exceptionally rocky ground like NH.

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Leemcardhold t1_jc6qm61 wrote

Yeah, anyone who’s dropped a shovel In the ground here knows digging ain’t easy

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Andromeda321 t1_jc6r6g1 wrote

Or sees those beautiful stone walls randomly in the woods! I always feel so sorry for those farmers.

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Leemcardhold t1_jc7ab90 wrote

There’s a quote from George’s Washington’s visit to NH. It’s something like ‘their corn crop is ok. The apples are nothing to write home about, but my god the stone walls are beautiful and bountiful!’

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tomsbradys t1_jc8n2bo wrote

They had tons of time late winter waiting on spring… hahaha

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Least-Car6096 t1_jc7379n wrote

Right?! It is one of my favorite parts of living in New England. I cannot even imagine having to dig up & move ALL those rocks in order to plant crops. I feel an overwhelming sense of nostalgia and gratitude whenever I see one

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Andromeda321 t1_jc73k6z wrote

100%! Life must have been so hard if farming in New Hampshire seemed like a good idea. The only shocking thing to me is that people didn't say "eff that" and move to Ohio and the like much earlier.

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bassboat1 t1_jc7ced2 wrote

As someone who's gardened in NH for decades, there's a fresh crop of rocks every year!

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Least-Car6096 t1_jc7gsmw wrote

🤣 you must be jacked! And have a lot of dented up shovels

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Hot-Specialist-6824 t1_jc7l3g1 wrote

New England potatoes lol.

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Least-Car6096 t1_jc7n2ba wrote

My Dad always called them that😂 and then when I moved from MA to NH I learned that allegedly the very first crop of white potatoes ever planted & harvested in America were grown right here in our town by the first Scottish settlers! Life always comes full circle. There are so many rock walls around here!

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Artemusfowle t1_jc83rm1 wrote

Moving a stone wall is illegal in NH. These are actual boundary lines, in many cases. You can rebuild a stone wall that has failed with building permits, et al.

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Oldphile t1_jc8ir8a wrote

Yup. One of the boundary lines on my property is defined by a stone wall.

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besafenh t1_jc7keeu wrote

Do you notice they are waist high on a 1850s average height man? Some walls in Dunbarton are over 4 feet wide.

Doorknobs at that house were pocket height.

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P0Rt1ng4Duty t1_jc97gwx wrote

The only way you could have 'dropped a shovel in the ground here' is if you were already standing above a hole.

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nullcompany t1_jc6qkip wrote

It might be less money to put a human on Mars, than to trench the granite state.

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nowhereman1223 t1_jc7a12g wrote

Why do you think Verizon ditched NH in the middle of the Fiber Upgrade?

Underground wasn't feasible and above ground has issues with the trees.

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nullcompany t1_jc8dz1g wrote

Why do I believe they did? Well, as a tiny ISP trying to sell competing DSL on wholesale Verizon copper in 2007 (and failing at it because of their monopoly), the joke we made at the time was that Verizon was terrified a Democrat might win the 2008 election and do something nuts like mandate broadband for everyone. And Maine/NH/VT were the fastest way to lose on that deal, so they sold them off and laughed all the way to the bank.

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nowhereman1223 t1_jca3rpd wrote

And why wouldn't they make it available in Maine, NH, VT?

Because of the feasibility. The profit just wasn't there.

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nowhereman1223 t1_jc79uzp wrote

Its called the granite state for a reason.

Plus buried lines means Jim Bob deciding to put in a fence, pond, or just dig for the hell of it, results in power outages and possible dead people.

Buried lines ARE NOT the answer for a state as rural as NH.

​

The answer is home owners allowing the utility to trim and remove trees that will cause issues with the lines. Most outages are caused by preventable tree limb damage. If the utility was allowed to go after home owners that declined to have the trimming done, it would get better fast.

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widget_fucker t1_jc7k2r3 wrote

Jim Bob lives everywhere. In fact, dare i say our baseline intelligence skews much higher than the national average.

Its all about the granite legde, granite rock bullshit!

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savingeverybody t1_jc8eyeh wrote

NH has the highest average IQ* of any state!

  • Yeah, I know IQ tests are bad.
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Ogre213 t1_jc82wmt wrote

The utilities have an absolute right to take trees that threaten the lines. The answer is them actually doing their damn job instead of cheating out on maintenance and pocketing the difference.

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nowhereman1223 t1_jca3n62 wrote

They don't have the right to remove trees or limbs from your property.

Just like you don't have the right to remove your neighbor's tree because it hangs near your property or "might" fall on your house.

They must get permission or they can get sued by landowners.

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Ogre213 t1_jcag37j wrote

They hold easements for their lines that permit them to clear on privately owned lands. These easements also permit them to ignore wetland and other environmental laws broadly and without prior approval.

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nowhereman1223 t1_jcaotmm wrote

Are you aware those easements don't cover the trees that aren't on the easement?

They aren't airspace easements.

If the tree is on the property owners' land and not on the easement, they need to get approval.

Don't get me wrong a lot of companies shirked maintenance. But they haven't been doing that for about a decade now. Every minute power is down and they have crews out working at double OT overnight for days straight.... they are losing MASSIVE amounts of money.

The math doesn't work out unless you are referring to super rural areas with only a few customers on a single line that covers miles and miles. But anywhere that has any density at all.... it doesn't make sense to not maintain it.

The power company isn't the internet company that charges you whether the service works or not. The power companies have a vested interest in keeping you connected and drawing power constantly.

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FrostyGranite t1_jc84q98 wrote

In my neighborhood, all the side roads have utilities underground. However… the main road which serves everyone, the lines are above ground. Never fails we loose power, going on 7 hours now and Eversource has no idea as the crews have not been out to evaluate.

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