Submitted by IAmNotARobot124 t3_10zq9bn in news
empfindsamkeit t1_j86dj0l wrote
Reply to comment by AwesomeBrainPowers in Family of Oakland baker seeks 'restorative justice' for her death following robbery by IAmNotARobot124
> If we accept the notion that crimes like robbery and burglary are consequences of poverty (and/or a lack of opportunity in the area)
Would be kind of insulting to the vast majority of poor people who don't commit these kinds of crimes. Maybe it's fairer to say that shitty people like this exist among the rich and poor, but being rich just masks it (i.e. they are the type of people who would rob/burglarize if they were poor).
Kharnsjockstrap t1_j88jaq0 wrote
Right? Need a job, place to stay and some money? Just find some rube to kill then say you’re sorry.
AwesomeBrainPowers t1_j86jynm wrote
You’re basically saying the same thing.
Neither my comment nor any of the links that I provided about restorative justice suggests that poverty inherently turns people into criminals, and suggesting otherwise just badly misses the point.
As you said, not all poor people commit burglaries; that’s obvious. At the same time, even fewer rich people do.
Of course, in no way am I suggesting that poverty is the only source of these sorts of crimes. However, unless you choose to believe the (completely unsupported) notion that criminals are simply born criminals, that means that there are many environmental factors at play. The entire point of restorative justice is to attempt to mitigate those factors and reduce crime overall.
AmITheAltAccount t1_j88ystg wrote
Rich people just commit different (but arguably equally harmful) crimes like wage theft, tax evasion, embezzlement, etc.
[deleted] t1_j89u6z4 wrote
[removed]
empfindsamkeit t1_j86m9lf wrote
> Neither my comment nor any of the links that I provided about restorative justice suggests that poverty inherently turns people into criminals, and suggesting otherwise just badly misses the point.
You linked a landing page to one site about restorative justice and I'm not about to read an entire website to figure out what you want me to take from it. The portion of your comment I quoted supposed that we accept the idea that robbery/burglary are consequences of poverty and/or lack of opportunity. If it's a consequence of poverty that means poverty causes it. But clearly it doesn't since 99% of poor people don't do it.
> However, unless you choose to believe the (completely unsupported) notion that criminals are simply born criminals, that means that there are many environmental factors at play.
That is what I'm saying, so we must not really be saying the same thing. There are many people who grow up desperately poor, or in abusive families, or suffer various traumas, etc, and they don't end up as violent criminals. In particular women are vastly less likely to end up that way. So clearly it must be something in their genetics, though it might only manifest itself in certain circumstances, e.g. if you're not rich. But it's just masked in the rich person. There's no need to steal if you can just buy, no need to rape if you can just pay call girls or woo a woman into marriage with cash. Little upside to criming, but a lot of downside.
I don't see how you mitigate that without making the poor person rich, which is equivalent to making everyone rich (because who wouldn't resort to burglary if one attempt was enough to cause society to make you rich?). Making them perform community service in lieu of prison is not going to change who they are. The only way to treat it is to in effect give them everything they want, or lock them away.
AwesomeBrainPowers t1_j86ob84 wrote
> The portion of your comment I quoted supposed that we accept the idea that robbery/burglary are consequences of poverty and/or lack of opportunity. If it’s a consequence of poverty that means poverty causes it.
No…that’s not at all how causality works. I’m not really sure how to help you through that one.
> So clearly it must be something in their genetics
Yikes.
OK, you have a good one.
empfindsamkeit t1_j86rv95 wrote
> No…that’s not at all how causality works. I’m not really sure how to help you through that one.
Definition of consequence: "a result or effect of an action or condition."
So to restate what you said: "If we accept the notion that crimes like robbery and burglary are the result or effect of poverty..."
> Yikes.
> OK, you have a good one.
Yeah, if you're not even going to admit the existence and influence of genetics on how a person behaves, we're done here. Though I am kind of morbidly curious to hear you explain why women around the world are considerably less likely to engage in robbery/burglary, no matter how poor.
[deleted] t1_j87xdxr wrote
[removed]
empfindsamkeit t1_j882g1r wrote
I find that really difficult to believe, but if true for the sake of argument, how else would you explain that? It seems like you think this is some kind of "gotcha" argument, but the other guy's argument was that crime was a result of poverty/environment. Your alleged facts foreclose both of those. So what else could it be? You also said "commit more crimes", implying that we're talking about being actually guilty, and not just being convicted/arrested more (otherwise law enforcement misconduct or racism could be at work). But we are arguing about actual criminals here and what makes them that way.
dukeimre t1_j88yqrb wrote
The point here is, correlation is not causation. For black people in America:
There was a series of policies that set them up for poverty. Slavery, sure, but more recently and relevantly redlining and other policies that set up black communities for failure. Black people were all forced into the same, poor communities (nobody would sell them homes anywhere else); their communities were ravaged at times by urban development ("where should we put this highway? Just stick it through the black neighborhood"); they were all put in the same schools that lacked basic essentials (and when they tried to go to other schools, white parents fled to the suburbs), they were discriminated against in hiring.
They were ravaged by the drug epidemic, and they were ravaged by the tough on crime approach that responded to the drug epidemic. For example, the consequences for possessing a small amount of crack were much, much greater than for possessing an equal amount of regular cocaine-- so, you wound up with poor black people getting ridiculously long prison sentences where wealthier people received relatively light consequences for the same crime. Likewise, there were many more police on black neighborhoods, with less oversight, so poor black people were much more likely to be caught and harshly punished for really low-level crimes, and noncriminal black youth were more likely to develop massive fear and distrust of the police due to antagonistic policing methods.
This in turn destroyed black families (imagine if a quarter of the men you know who ever did any illegal drug went to prison and their kids spent a portion of their childhood without a father).
All this taken together means that more black people are poor, more black people are less educated, more black people are in prison, etc.
But it doesn't mean black people are genetically inferior.
(Happy to provide a source for anything mentioned above upon request!)
empfindsamkeit t1_j89t0ti wrote
> The point here is, correlation is not causation.
No one was saying it was. Guy above was claiming that even controlling for wealth and location, black people allegedly commit more crime. If that were true (which I very much doubt for a number of reasons), what would be the explanation? If men commit more violent crime than women when you control for pretty much any variable, what does that leave as the explanation?
> All this taken together means that more black people are poor, more black people are less educated, more black people are in prison, etc.
> But it doesn't mean black people are genetically inferior.
And no one said that. The guy above said that controlling for income and geography, it was still true. Which means even rich, educated black people living in wealthy areas commit more crime than rich, educated whites in the same area. As I said, I think that's bullshit, and I could list the reasons. But if it were true, it would seem to preclude much other reason but genetics. At least that I can think of.
dukeimre t1_j8a3bwa wrote
Ohhhh, I missed the "even controlling for...". Sorry!
I do think it's possible that the original commenter is right because there might be other factors to control for besides geography and income. For example, perhaps black kids who live in a rich neighborhood and have a high income are still less likely to do well in school because of stereotype threat. So I wouldn't be surprised if there are performance differences between groups that remain after you control for geography and income... but I'd expect that the more additional factors you control for, the smaller the differences would become, until they eventually vanished (or, at least, almost vanished, to within a tiny margin).
empfindsamkeit t1_j8cm6si wrote
I'm not saying there can't be any differences, I'm saying I think it's unlikely that there's a statistically significant difference when it comes to major crimes. Why would a rich black guy in a wealthy area commit robbery or burglary? For fun? Does the commenter just mean white collar crime past a certain income level? That arguably makes it harder to believe. I can't remember the last time I read about a white collar crime committed by a black guy who wasn't a minister (and even then white evangelical ministers have elevated it to an art form).
I think he just threw that out there because he thought he could shut me up about arguing that genetics influence criminals by trying to trap me into saying black people are genetically predisposed to crime. Hence the Trumpian "they say". I'd also wager any serious study attempting to establish that would be unlikely to receive funding or see publication. Which means he's probably either referring to a far-right source or his own skimming of basic stats where he didn't really "control for" anything, assuming he wasn't outright making it up to see what I'd say.
Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments