ELYSIANFEELS t1_j82bp0e wrote
Reply to comment by muskratful1234 in California city closes canyon to visitors to avert "poppy apocalypse" by pika_pie
The California Poppy is our state flower.
muskratful1234 t1_j82lyc9 wrote
I know. Which is why they are all assholes for not respecting them.
ankylosaurus_tail t1_j82rbf0 wrote
That's silly. People should respect nature, not official designations. And California poppy's aren't rare or vulnerable.
johncanyon t1_j833hhw wrote
>People should respect nature...
But they don't. Welcome to the world.
ankylosaurus_tail t1_j850k8p wrote
Yes, of course. But if they won't respect it for the intrinsic value of nature, telling them to respect it because it's "the official flower" is lame. That's the wrong ethics to be promoting.
johncanyon t1_j85nwhi wrote
This happens all the time with trails in our national parks. They get shut down and allowed to go dormant every few years to promote rehabilitation of the local wildlife. It falls pretty squarely in line with conservation ethics.
ankylosaurus_tail t1_j85vd2r wrote
Yes, but this is a rare, phenomenal occurrence, that people will remember for the rest of their lives (and might change the environmental perspective of some folks). Loosing access at this time is shutting the entire experience down for the public, not just a temporary closure.
johncanyon t1_j8635f9 wrote
ankylosaurus_tail t1_j8692ks wrote
So let's just lock people out of nature? What else do you propose?
Perhaps it's naive, but I hope that it's possible for humans to make ethical progress in our relationship with the natural world, and I think encouraging people to have experiences with amazing natural phenomena is key to that project. If you don't believe it's possible for people to improve, then what's the point of conservation? There are 8 billion of us, and we're going to ruin it all pretty soon anyway...
johncanyon t1_j88rnau wrote
>So let's just lock people out of nature? What else do you propose?
Please don't take this the wrong way, but... How frequently do you go out hiking, backpacking, climbing or primitive camping? I ask because in a lot of wilderness areas in the US, you need a permit to visit, and the number of permits issued can be limited and strictly enforced. Regulating visitation of publicly held spaces isn't a new or novel form of land management.
Bans like this are sometimes necessary to prevent loss of the ecosystem as a resource, and they're almost never permanent. It would be this way even if everyone respected wilderness spaces; the mere act of visiting will cause some measure of deterioration of the land and wildlife.
I can relate to being bummed about a place being closed for a time, but I think it's important to remember, especially in California, that there are still a tremendous number of beautiful places to visit and enjoy.
ankylosaurus_tail t1_j89ghzj wrote
I'm quite familiar with policies to regulate access to fragile ecosystems. I'm a forest biologist and I spend a lot of time in the woods, including a lot of restricted areas. This isn't one of those situations.
California poppies aren't fragile or at risk, and the environmental "concerns" are made up bullshit, to provide moral cover to NIMBY's who don't want to deal with the hassle of tourists. You can see these flowers from the highway, and people are getting to them by pulling over and walking across fields--fields of grass and flowers that aren't protected or fragile.
If people were sincerely concerned about the "impact" of people coming to see the flowers, they'd be advocating for improved infrastructure, like busses that take people to viewing areas, or temporary elevated walkways. There are plenty of creative ways to reduce negative impacts and protect access. Nobody is trying, because access isn't their goal. They are just trying to reduce hassles by eliminating the opportunity for people to experience nature. That's lame.
johncanyon t1_j89takg wrote
I imagine it would be difficult to rally the institutional will to commodify a field which blooms for so short of a time.
ankylosaurus_tail t1_j8a08fj wrote
Commodify? It's just infrastructure and a plan for access. Setting up shuttle bus service and some temporary walkways isn't very complicated and should be manageable in a few days by a competent, motivated government. If their goal was protecting ecology, they'd have a plan like that. But their goal is just avoiding the hassle of tourists, they're just cynically lying about environmental concerns because it sounds better in the media.
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scissorseptorcutprow t1_j86l00c wrote
The ends justifying the means in this case. If it helps conservation efforts I’m for it. This will also protect the surrounding ecosystem.
ankylosaurus_tail t1_j86q8h3 wrote
There are no conservation efforts for the California poppy, it's an incredibly common species that grows all over the place, literally as a weed. This isn't a particularly fragile ecosystem. The "concern" about the environment is really insincere NIMBY bullshit, to grab the moral high ground. If they cared about protecting nature, they'd be advocating for better infrastructure and planning, so people can see it responsibly.
scissorseptorcutprow t1_j86ufu3 wrote
Ahhh I was maybe assuming things, provincial flowers are protected in Canada.
killer-cricket-7 t1_j849lmj wrote
Sometimes they make a designation "official" specifically to PROTECT the nature there.
muskratful1234 t1_j84oy66 wrote
All of our ecosystems in CA are vulnerable and the wildflowers are an important part of the ecosystem. This closure is designed to keep people like you out.
ankylosaurus_tail t1_j8504it wrote
Yeah, California is a really special place...y'all have such an inflated sense of self. Respecting flowers because the government officially designated them special is lame--if you don't respect the intrinsic value of nature, you're missing the point. I work in forests professionally, as a biologist. I'm quite sure I spend more time in nature than you.
muskratful1234 t1_j851qkm wrote
We respect the flowers because they are an important part of our ecosystem. It has nothing to do with them being the state flower. Again, I'm very glad for closures like this which keep people like you out who have no business being there.
Edit to add: what the fuck kind of biologist doesn't think protecting local ecosystems is important? I'm calling bullshit on that.
ankylosaurus_tail t1_j8531lu wrote
You're totally missing the point--I think telling people to respect them because "they are the state flower" is a stupid argument and the wrong ethical position to promote. I want people to respect nature more, and appreciate it for it's own value and beauty, not just because the government likes this flower.
And I think respect and appreciation for nature start with having actual experiences with nature. We should be creating more opportunity and encouraging people to spend time in nature, especially around amazing phenomena, that they'll remember for the rest of their lives. The only reason to prevent people from experiencing nature is to protect fragile, rare ecosystems, and fields of California poppies are neither rare or fragile, they're just beautiful.
The harm here is to people and infrastructure--dealing with the people who want to see the flowers is a pain in the ass, but the community should put up with that. And the infrastructure should be improved to give people more responsible ways to experience the flowers--build boardwalks and viewing platforms, create a bussing system to get people there, etc. etc. etc.
Instead, a bunch of curmudgeons are just cutting off people's access to nature, so they don't have to put up with the hassle. That's lame and I do not believe that it's sincerely motivated by genuine respect for nature. It's just NIMBY's who don't want to put up with tourists. Fuck that. Let people see nature, help them do it, and make the experience better for all.
muskratful1234 t1_j859p95 wrote
Like I already mentioned more than once, it has nothing to do with them being a state flower. Seems like something a biologist should understand.
ankylosaurus_tail t1_j85aggg wrote
That's exactly what you said though.
-ELYSIANFEELS >The California Poppy is our state flower.
-muskratful1234 >I know. Which is why they are all assholes for not respecting them.
muskratful1234 t1_j85ankj wrote
So? The local government didn't put the closure in place because they are the state flower. I just believe that's one more reason to respect them.
ankylosaurus_tail t1_j85b3nu wrote
The local government put the closure in place because they are NIMBY's who don't want to deal with hassles from people who want to experience nature. They should have spent the last four years (since the last super bloom, when they had issues with traffic) coming up with plans to accommodate people. Instead they are just cutting off access to nature. And they are cynically saying it's about protecting nature, but that's insincere bullshit. It's about not having tourists disrupt their town. If the ecological impact was the concern, there are many reasonable ways to address that--and providing responsible access to nature should be the goal, not eliminating the hassles.
muskratful1234 t1_j85bwpd wrote
I'm assuming you've never tried to drive through the area when the blooms are going on. I have, many times. It makes a Southern CA freeway which is already bad on a normal day, an absolute nightmare. It is literally right next to a major freeway. It's not off in the backcountry somewhere where people who actually hike and care about nature are the only ones who bother going. It's a bunch of assholes who just want to get one for the 'gram. Leaving trash and dirty diapers on the side of the road when they leave. Trampling the flowers which are a food source for our pollinators. So yeah, as a local, I don't want these disrespectful fucks around.
ankylosaurus_tail t1_j87r5wq wrote
California poppies actually aren't a food source for pollinators--they make a lot of pollen, but almost no nectar. They take advantage of pollinators, but don't feed them.
Sorry people who want to experience nature are a hassle for you though.
parker0215 t1_j82vd2k wrote
I would hope so, it would be weird if it was the Iceland poppy
Safari_Eyes t1_j8chbg7 wrote
Utah's state bird is the California Seagull, so it does happen now and then.
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