Submitted by TheAngelMutants t3_11segto in news
telestrial t1_jcdcouo wrote
OF COURSE what would really help with data privacy in the US is if there were more robust laws to protect consumers.
OF COURSE Meta, Twitter, and Google do a ton with data that is way beyond what the average person even understands.
OF COURSE the US has installed spying tools all across our own telecommunications, monitoring pretty much everything we do online.
That can be true and it can also be true that TikTok has been unable to properly assure anyone that data flowing through the app isn’t able to be read/shared with the CCP. In fact, there has been little driblets here and there that suggest the opposite. Namely, that Chinese-based personnel snooped on America journalists and Chinese-based developers have complete DB access.
In short: China is a black box. There may be absolutely no real concern here. There may be a massive spying campaign. Odds are it’s somewhere in between.
The problem is that we can’t know. It’s like how they handled COVID—we still don’t know the origin, we’ll never know the origin because China will never cooperate, and it’s clear they lied for quite awhile about the seriousness of the issue, even after everyone knew about it…even still today.
We can’t trust that a person who resides in China isn’t completely and utterly beholden to the CCP’s whims on this.
This should have happened a long time ago.
cookingboy t1_jceo7ao wrote
> That can be true and it can also be true that TikTok has been unable to properly assure anyone that data flowing through the app isn’t able to be read/shared with the CCP.
Please read up on Project Texas. TikTok has been working toward a solution where all U.S. data are saved on Texas based Oracle servers, with ability to be audited and security verified by a U.S. government approved 3rd party panel.
From a technical perspective, such measure would sufficiently guarantee American users data don't go to China. The government was close to approve it until the recent political climate changed, so politicians want to score points now.
The concern you outlined is very much valid, but the technical response is also valid. Unfortunately this whole thing was political theater funded by Meta in the first place: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/03/30/facebook-tiktok-targeted-victory/
gizmozed t1_jcfb98m wrote
I simply do not believe that data like that can be secured in ANY manner. There are always way to transmit data, ways that cannot be detected or audited.
Vdawgp t1_jcgb5f4 wrote
Even if all the US data was sequestered perfectly and never got back to the CCP (something I have severe doubts about), banning it unless they sell is the right move IMO because, due to the CCP issue, the algorithm is subject to the changes China wants. We’ve already seen examples during the Hong Kong protests of different videos showing up based on if you searched about demonstrations in English vs. Chinese characters, and we should not be comfortable allowing the CCP to easily manipulating what we’re paying attention to.
cookingboy t1_jcgd81f wrote
> We’ve already seen examples during the Hong Kong protests of different videos showing up based on if you searched about demonstrations in English vs. Chinese characters
You serious? You can search for that in English and Chinese on YouTube and you'd get very different results. The hashtags and titles are in different languages dude.
>we should not be comfortable allowing the CCP to easily manipulating what we’re paying attention to.
That's literally China's "excuse" for banning social media from the U.S. "Malicious foreign influence" as they call it, which is par for the course for a country with no freedom of speech.
So far no one has seen any evidence that TikTok uses its algorithm for any political manipulation (in fact you can drown yourself in anti-CCP propaganda on there if you want), so start building our version of the Great Firewall when all the accusations are just things that "could" happen is very concerning.
What's next? Start banning more apps and websites from countries that are not U.S. allies?
Vdawgp t1_jcgy4s0 wrote
First off, there is proof of algorithm manipulation.
Second, I don’t understand how bringing up China banning Western social media is an argument against banning TikTok in its current state. Why are we playing to a double standard where they can ban our apps but we can’t ban theirs? If China does this because they believe Western social media would manipulate its contests to cause unrest, then they’d have no issue using TikTok to do the same and we shouldn’t allow it.
cookingboy t1_jchqc02 wrote
> Why are we playing to a double standard
Because I’d very much for us to have a different standard than China when it comes to personal freedom and free speech.
Vdawgp t1_jchu9vo wrote
This isn’t a personal freedom or free speech issue, it’s a data and influence issue. If China doesn’t trust Western social networks having their citizen’s data or subject to their algorithms, than we shouldn’t trust the CCP’s either. We wouldn’t have allowed the USSR to buy NBC, and I fail to see how this is any different.
cookingboy t1_jchvgyz wrote
> This isn’t a personal freedom or free speech issue, it’s a data and influence issue.
It’s both.
> If China doesn’t trust Western social networks having their citizen’s data or subject to their algorithms
That’s what China says. In reality they want a censored internet for their citizens and full control of what their people sees online. US is heading down the same path once we start banning apps and websites from countries that are not US allies.
Vdawgp t1_jci4tas wrote
Yeah I’m sure they couldn’t censor their internet if they allowed Google, what an asinine argument lol
cookingboy t1_jcigwxg wrote
Of course they couldn't. How could they censor Google without cooperation from the company or a blanket ban? Do you know how internet works???
In fact China's law requires American companies to have server inside China and cooperate with Chinese government for censorship. Google and Facebook didn't wanna play ball so they were blocked. Apple and Microsoft did play ball which is why iMessage and FaceTime and iCloud and LinkedIn and Skype and Bing are allowed. I bet you didn't know that.
It requires cooperation on the companys' part. Without that you can't selectively censor content.
Vdawgp t1_jcinwb7 wrote
Got it, so you’re resorting to technicalities. Obviously the version of Google that would be in China would have to play ball with the CCP and follow their rules on things like data governance and local control. So I ask again, if China is going to treat Western companies as adversaries on this topic, why should we lowering our walls and allow them to export authoritarianism through TikTok? It’s pretty simple; if TikTok is willing to sell off their US arm so that it’s not required to follow Chinese law (either implicit or explicit), than it should be banned for both the data and influence issues.
cookingboy t1_jcip4bk wrote
> China is going to treat Western companies as adversaries
But they don’t? They allow all western companies as long as they follow Chinese laws, the same laws that Chinese companies have to follow themselves. They’ve never banned a tech company just for being American.
Did you know more than 20% of Apple’s revenue is from China? Does that sound like a country that treat Western companies as adversaries?
I am for the solution to make US data privacy and political influence laws that all tech companies have to follow, foreign or domestic. But that wouldn’t happen since this whole thing started because of Meta’s lobbying in the first place.
Vdawgp t1_jcitb9n wrote
I respect and agree with the argument that we need comprehensive data protection and algorithm transparency laws. That makes sense.
My fundamental disagreement with you is the level of concern about TikTok specifically. The fact is that ByteDance has to, whether willingly or unwillingly, do what the CCP asks. There is evidence of algorithm manipulation. The CCP does have those levers. We’ve seen ByteDance work with the CCP very openly. As Ben Thompson says, China is using their access to push their ideals. And as Matt Yglesias says, allowing TikTok would be no different from the US allowing the Soviets to buy NBC during the Cold War.
For me banning or forcing TikTok to divest is a five alarm fire we have to take care of, while comprehensive user protection laws are the asbestos in the walls of the house next door that probably should’ve been removed a while ago, but not the main concern with the fire going.
cookingboy t1_jciw9ku wrote
> We’ve seen ByteDance work with the CCP very openly. As Ben Thompson says, China is using their access to push their ideals.
A lot of people say a lot of things these days when it comes to China. But at the end of the day even the US government has not presented any concrete proof as to TikTok’s collaboration with the CCP.
> allowing TikTok would be no different from the US allowing the Soviets to buy NBC during the Cold War.
Well I fundamentally disagree. The US and China are not enemies at the moment and we aren’t even in a Cold War, and the economic ties and relationship between two countries are very different from what the US had with Soviet Union. We have a lot of business interest in them as they do in us. The trade between the two countries just reached all time high: https://www.politico.com/news/2023/02/07/trade-china-relations-economies-00081301
You think there is a fire going on meanwhile even the best evidence brought up by the most staunch anti-China politicians so far is “there could be a fire”.
I personally think this is just the new Red Scare and we are trending toward a new era of McCarthyism. And of course SnapChat and Meta have been funding this whole effort, just look at their stock price in the past few days.
Either way I appreciate your level headed discussion, we may disagree but it’s more pleasant than most discussions I’ve on Reddit when it comes to this topic.
CornCobMcGee t1_jce3oj2 wrote
>We can’t trust that a person who resides in China isn’t completely and utterly beholden to the CCP’s whims on this.
That's the thing. A Chinese national could be as anti-CCP as they want, but if they own a company, the government has their greasy fingers in the pie, whether said person wants it or not. Every business action has government inclusion by law. Theres no way around it.
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