AdminsAreLazyID10TS t1_j5rl8ic wrote on January 25, 2023 at 1:47 AM

Reply to comment by Nervous_Promotion819 in Germany Agrees to Send Leopard 2A6s to Ukraine by For_All_Humanity

One might ask what use a tank is to a country that will not and can not use it.

Even if NATO gets involved, guess what, the material is already in combat against the enemy.

Nervous_Promotion819 t1_j5t1s3h wrote on January 25, 2023 at 10:48 AM

A tank company (14 tanks) means about 250 soldiers who will no longer have their main weapon system. It takes years to fill those gaps, and by then these soldiers have forgotten a lot because they haven't been able to practice. One has to remember that even if Ukraine is completely pushing Russia out of its territories, it does not mean that Russia is no longer a threat in the future.

AdminsAreLazyID10TS t1_j5vh5af wrote on January 25, 2023 at 9:10 PM

You're not wrong, though fortunately for them they have an ally with 6,000 functional tanks to their 300 if they need training.

Or maybe Germany should lease them some crews too to have a tank corps with some real experience.

YlangScent t1_j5t2ef5 wrote on January 25, 2023 at 10:56 AM

True, but that's a bit of a simplistic argument to make.

The truth of the matter is that Ukraine is not part of NATO or any formal alliance to begin with. In fact they've been on the Russian 'side' for most of modern history and are the most corrupt nation in Europe after Russia.

It is currently unthinkable that Ukraine becomes pro Russian again in the near future, but not unthinkable that corruption will lead material into the wrong hands. There's also a somewhat non negligible chance that Ukraine becomes neutralized and loses their arsenal to Russia.

>One might ask what use a tank is to a country that will not and can not use it.

The same use as nuclear weapons: deterrent. If Ukraine still had theirs, there would have never been an invasion. Also the world is unpredictable, you never know what you need your tanks for. Could be as simple as training or as serious as defending your own country rather than a country you have sympathy, but no treaties with.

AdminsAreLazyID10TS t1_j5vgnkk wrote on January 25, 2023 at 9:07 PM

Germany isn't deterring anyone with their 300 obsolete tanks. Who's going to invade them anyways? Poland? Denmark? Hungary, lmao? Not happening.

That's the real deal with the "modern" tank designs, btw, they're all forty years old now and all vulnerable to modern AT.

There's an actual modern Abrams design on the way (and the rebirth of light tank philosophy) that aims to have countermeasures but the real thing is this Ukraine war will be the last chance obsolete, fifty or forty year old designs like Leopards, Challengers, and M1s have in a genuine tank vs tank setting.

Germany might as well just send all 300 rust buckets and embed design engineers to figure out how to make a modern replacement.

YlangScent t1_j630sht wrote on January 27, 2023 at 10:22 AM

>Who's going to invade them anyways?

Same way Ukraine was thinking before 2014.

It's irrelevant what the current situation of the world is. It's utterly unpredictable what the future brings and extremely irresponsible for a country to give up war or defense material. Just look at Sweden and Finland scrambling to join NATO to gain protection now and giving up 'ideals'.

Equipment can be as old and obsolete as they come, it is still better than not having them. Especially if the 'enemy' is currently unlikely to expand their arsenal.