Submitted by VoE_Monkey_Overlord t3_115jq5t in nottheonion
Comments
Psychomadeye t1_j93o9pr wrote
They'll just replace them. Government should seize the company on judgement for x years. Like jail, but for corporations.
CrazyCoKids t1_j93wki9 wrote
I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.
Psychomadeye t1_j93ws12 wrote
Liquidation is a valid business decision.
Fischer72 t1_j94frl4 wrote
Citizens United v Federal Election Commission also asserted this garbage notion 5-4 which ushered the modern system of dark money and Super PACs with donations made through non-profits which don't disclose their donors.
electricdwarf t1_j952tvl wrote
That's actually an interesting idea. In life fines are definitely not enough to prevent normal citizens from doing crimes. Jail time and prison sure is. Maybe a system modeled after Nordic prisons would be good. Instead of fines, perhaps a government agency could be formed that "jails" a corporation. Comes in and rehabilitates the corp. Making sure it follows all applicable laws, not scamming it's employees, and auditing everything. But not from like an outside in approach. But from a "were the CEO type approach". If that's too light then maybe am American approach to jail. They are seized and held for a certain amount of time. Offices must close. Their accounts are frozen. No business can be done.
gregorydgraham t1_j95w557 wrote
You’ve described a regulatory agency
theLonelyBinary t1_j96a34j wrote
Not to my knowledge. Or at least not the way they do regulations here.
I think they're imagining something more hands on and intensive... more like how PDs sometimes get federal oversight through something like a consent decree. Except, I guess, without the company's consent...like jail is for individuals.
theLonelyBinary t1_j96a3ot wrote
Not to my knowledge. Or at least not the way they do regulations here.
I think they're imagining something more hands on and intensive... more like how PDs sometimes get federal oversight through something like a consent decree. Except, I guess, without the company's consent...like jail is for individuals.
Llenette1 t1_j96g0qa wrote
If corporations are "people" we should absolutely jail them.
psilocin72 t1_j93q5y9 wrote
This is one of the best ideas I’ve heard in a long time. Well done my friend
Psychomadeye t1_j93qaan wrote
That way if they appeal they're still held by the government until they win.
psilocin72 t1_j93s50t wrote
Of course this should be in addition to fines and criminal penalties for anyone who individually broke the law
Psychomadeye t1_j93tleu wrote
I think that part kinda depends. But I agree with the principle. Sorta why the court system exists to evaluate on a case by case basis. While they're serving their sentence, they will basically be paying 100% tax on profits. Perhaps the government can choose to collect fines in voting shares.
Edit: what I'm worried about is the government reading the 13th amendment.
Parafault t1_j93hcja wrote
Or at least make the fines income-based. So if a company makes 20 billion in profits per year, make the fine $40 billion and redistribute it to help those who were impacted.
ChrisFromIT t1_j945rag wrote
If you make it double the amount of profit they brought it, that is a good way to pretty much shutdown the business. It should be like 20% of the revenue. Or something. And it should be based on revenue, not profit too. As they could easily lower their profits for the year when they get fined, thus lowering the amount needed to pay the fine.
DarthPelagiusTheNice t1_j94ok8v wrote
If a company is using child labour it should be shut down
ChrisFromIT t1_j94ph33 wrote
Yes, because every person that works there deserves to lose their job.
/s
RadioFreeAmerika t1_j94tsu3 wrote
That's why we don't shut down criminal organizations when found out. /s
ChrisFromIT t1_j94w376 wrote
Do you know how stupid of an argument that is. You are comparing apples and oranges. In criminal organizations, everyone in it has broken the law in some way. In a legitimate business, not everyone has broken the law when it is found that part of the business operated in a way that constitutes a crime or an action that is punishable by a fine.
So what? You think Johnny in the mailroom deserves to go to jail and lose his job because some idiot decided to cause the company to break the law? Because that is what your argument is saying.
So I hope you see how stupid your argument is.
RadioFreeAmerika t1_j94xmp8 wrote
If a company repeatedly or severly breaks the law, it needs to be shut down for good. First time, big penalty, second time, external oversight and bigger penalty, third time, forced liquidation. Besides that, jail time for the executives and managers and if the kids worked under Johnny, also for Johnny.
Maybe Johnny shouldn't have worked for a company that exploited child labour.
Companies are power-tripping and undermining the foundations of our society. Executives and managers have outsourced almost all risks while reaping all the benefits. There is no real accountability for any of them anymore. They know and act accordingly. If we don't want to end up with working conditions like a few centuries ago, we need to reign them in.
ChrisFromIT t1_j94y48w wrote
>third time, forced liquidation.
You are still saying we should punish people who are innocent in the affair. That is what you are advocating for.
All that needs to be done major fines, maybe oversight and fines, and/or jail time for the people responsible for doing the illegal actions.
RadioFreeAmerika t1_j950rmu wrote
They are not innocent. They are complicit and enable the company they work for to do the shady stuff they are doing. It's sad for the ones that don't know about it but lose their job nevertheless. However, that's life. Have a good social security net and find a new job. It also has the benefit that companies would know that they will lose employees after the first or second strike. As an employee, these should be wake-up calls. Time to start looking for a new job before the third strike might hit your company, and you lose it.
ChrisFromIT t1_j950y3u wrote
>They are complicit and enable the company they work for to do the shady stuff they are doing.
Only if they are aware of it happening. Otherwise, yes, they are innocent.
asingleshot7 t1_j953dho wrote
His point there was that if a Company is publicly known as a 2 strike company then the positions at the company are clearly unreliable. In this case I would also be in favor the stock of a 3 strike company being invalidated. If you invest in a company and it commits major crimes that money should be lost in it's entirety and I have no sympathy for a person investing in criminal enterprise. Would change the meaning of accountability to the shareholders, and for the better.
ChrisFromIT t1_j954qkz wrote
>His point there was that if a Company is publicly known as a 2 strike company then the positions at the company are clearly unreliable.
The issue is they are advocating for what is known as the three strikes system. People advocate for it thinking it reduces crime. Studies are finding it doesn't.
https://www.ebpsociety.org/blog/education/205-tough-crime-policies-have-struck-out
And there are issues with it as well that make it a more complicated system to fix those issues, or lessen those issues. And you would still end up potentially hurting innocent people.
For example, say a company has 2 strikes already. It has been 10 years since the last strike, ops they accidentally did something that would result in a fine. Nope, it is the 3rd strike, business gets liquidated. Or 20 years since the second strike or 40 years.
Or what if the fine was for something completely unrelated to the first two strikes. Or what if not enough time was given to correct the issues that caused a previous strike thus requiring another fine.
The better solution is going after the c level executives or the managers or employees actively engaging in the activities that caused the need for the fine. Not shutting down the business.
asingleshot7 t1_j955ghw wrote
I feel like the comparison between the normal criminal three strikes rule and a corporate version is a little weak, what with the very different priorities between a person and a sociopathic company. A fall off time for strikes would be entirely reasonable. Say a decade without egregious criminal acts? Also it would be extremely simple to have a "fix within X months or receive an additional strike" as part of a judgement. Also have strikes follow any bunch of assets comprising 10% or more of the company so the "company" cant just disappear.I'm also in favor of C level individuals being culpable for egregious policies but hitting the force for change in the pocketbook seems to be necessary.
FoxEuphonium t1_j96dl2b wrote
> You are still saying we should punish people who are innocent in the affair.
That is the harsh reality of living in a large and interconnected society. Any change to try to improve that society on a material level will have short-term losers, and a large portion of them are guaranteed to be people who didn’t do anything wrong. That is
A.) not unique to this topic
B.) not an argument against making changes when necessary
At most, what you should be arguing is “doing this will make innocent people lose their jobs, so if you’re going to do this, have a plan for softening that eventuality.”
[deleted] t1_j94tkpa wrote
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Kaidyn04 t1_j94w3aj wrote
if they didnt report the child labor? yep
ChrisFromIT t1_j94wktq wrote
If not reporting it, if they are aware of it happening, constitutes a crime. But that is something different and not part of the decision about shutting down the business if one part decided to conduct illegal actions on behalf of the business, which isn't what is being discussed.
NotATranslator t1_j9505rl wrote
Yet this happens all the time. Companies do get seized for criminal activity and people lose their jobs. Those directly involved in criminal activity get charged. That's life, sometimes you get punished for the behavior of others. I'm guessing you were never in the military or any position where you were responsible for others.
ChrisFromIT t1_j950eal wrote
>Companies do get seized for criminal activity and people lose their jobs.
Only if the company is solely doing criminal activities. Or that is their main source of income.
NotATranslator t1_j950mcn wrote
So you do agree that companies can get seized for criminal activity and innocent people can get screwed over! So your argument has been rendered moot. Better luck next time.
ChrisFromIT t1_j950roa wrote
>So your argument has been rendered moot.
No it hasn't. Reread what I wrote in my comments.
NotATranslator t1_j9510vu wrote
I already did. Apparently you can't read your own or lack the capacity to admit when you invalidated your own argument.
ChrisFromIT t1_j951fcn wrote
>Apparently you can't read your own or lack the capacity to admit when you invalidated your own argument.
You have to resort to ad hominems to make your point, that means you lost the debate since you cannot attack the argument you resort to attacking the person.
Ps. Just so you know, my comments were about parts of the company doing illegal activities. Which you said companies could still be seized by the government. And I corrected you in saying only if those illegal activities were the sole or main source of revenue.
Not sure why you think that correction invalidates the earlier statement.
imafraidofmuricans t1_j95f1a7 wrote
The children don't deserve to lose their job?
imafraidofmuricans t1_j95eru4 wrote
>If you make it double the amount of profit they brought it, that is a good way to pretty much shutdown the business.
Oh no.
Anyway.
Ib4 "the people who just let it happen will lose their jobs". Well, dont you believe in the free market and that another company will appear and fill the niche? Besides, if they were employing children they probably weren't that good of an employer to the adults.
We can compromise and nationalize them instead. Or, if you want to keep things "small government" we can forcefully redistribute ownership to the employees.
Any fine less than potential loss of everything will literally just be a cost of doing business. Something you cover with insurance.
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JGCities t1_j938y1n wrote
This.
Dont tell me about the fine. Tell me how many people went to jail.
openly_gray t1_j93b8fp wrote
Should be in the stockade on a public square with a sign: I exploited children for profit
[deleted] t1_j92z06m wrote
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manklar t1_j94tczn wrote
No. This will continue till we do something about it. Pitchforks are what they kept them in check in the past. Nothing good will come up of a system meant to protect the corporations doing the damage. You are a capitalist of a worker. No other way around it. We will end up with a society sleeping in the streets or one in the streets fighting for their rights. No republicans or democrats will fix that. They are bought and paid for the same corporations
RangerVic06 t1_j93lj4n wrote
I noticed the same thing within the article when it popped up this morning. Where’s the incentive to take the law seriously, when the repercussions are less than a slap on the wrist. White collar crime is cheap to violate, and that affects MANY more people. Buy drugs for your own consumption, and your penalty is both financial and hard time.
Chekhovs-gum t1_j951f0n wrote
If the punishment is a fine, it is only a crime for the poor
tranding t1_j92lm4t wrote
$15k? They could pay them way less
Eric1491625 t1_j94127r wrote
The company was FINED $15k per child.
It's insane that this is the maximum federal penalty allowed.
$15k per child may not even cover the cost advantage of using the kids. How in the world is this proper punishment?
[deleted] t1_j94cdpb wrote
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OcculusSniffed t1_j93ahtg wrote
I paid 12k in child care last year. And I'm just now finding out I could have gotten paid at least that much instead?
Kind_Bullfrog_4073 t1_j93slun wrote
Yeah send them to work instead of paying someone to work for them
andreasbeer1981 t1_j95aj99 wrote
no wonder they outsource to Thailand.
JimmyGattheParty t1_j93jtu8 wrote
The company will just fold it in to the cost of doing business and keep on. Executives will have to be criminally responsible before such practices are eliminated.
euchrebot t1_j94bz4r wrote
That’s a good bargain. No wonder companies do it even with the fines
Rosebunse t1_j93qj2c wrote
The thing is, a lotnof parents want this to be expanded so they can turn their own children into virtual slaves.
QuartermasterBetel t1_j94wb61 wrote
Tbh I feel like a lot of parent's incentive for having kids is so they can do chores and labour instead
Order the very least repay their parents for existing
RedditBeginAgain t1_j93xhrx wrote
$15k is probably the difference between child and adult pay over only a year or two.
Clarkeprops t1_j94cyav wrote
I’ll take 3
TricksterWolf t1_j925i8r wrote
That is disturbingly reasonable.
Eric1491625 t1_j9418ht wrote
Well the article said that the company was fined $15,000 per child, so...not reasonable for a fine at all. Way too low.
TricksterWolf t1_j96ktl2 wrote
I agree.
I meant it's disturbing how reasonable that figure looks to a soulless corporation. It almost invites them to keep using children.
lazyfrenchman t1_j94bwcq wrote
Hard to get in your 60 years of service if you don't start at 10.
therobotisjames t1_j94k3ae wrote
“Listen Timmy, if you didn’t want to work why did your mommy and daddy sign these papers saying you have to operate the 40 ton press. Now put your tiny hands on the controls and make these trump coins.”
fourfourzero t1_j94f0m8 wrote
>!i had no idea it was so profitable to get caught!<
Vapur9 t1_j94ho34 wrote
Be prepared to pay more for Tyson foods to cover the fines?
EmptyKnowledge9314 t1_j94j79v wrote
Munchkinflation
FraustFortress t1_j94w8jl wrote
Teensy tiny slap on the wrist. No one arrest no one held accountable just a ittle bittle fine
Dan-68 t1_j95imiv wrote
A fine that can be shrugged off as the cost of doing business.
gadget850 t1_j94lcjn wrote
That will be fixed in the Republican states looking to get more children into the workplace.
TheHighWarlord t1_j97o7d8 wrote
Don't worry people, capitalism is working as intended.
[deleted] t1_j93xv5i wrote
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[deleted] t1_j93zf6j wrote
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jepotthegreat t1_j95dbcw wrote
😥😥😥😥😥
[deleted] t1_j95mlm5 wrote
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SirThatsCuba t1_j9681mc wrote
Don't show my boss, this is less than I make and I don't do shit
mala27369 t1_j96ih6d wrote
3rd world country pretending to be first world...SAD
[deleted] t1_j96kjmc wrote
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Cr1ms0nDemon t1_j98mn7b wrote
That's about what I got paid by Albertson's Osco in high school
Shot-Spray5935 t1_j95aaed wrote
That doesn't make any sense. You're supposed to turn a profit with child labor that's the whole idea of employing kids. Why does it cost 15k per child? They should make the kids work harder.
[deleted] t1_j95ywaq wrote
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generic_edgelord t1_j95cb2v wrote
Its region locked so i cant read it but my assumption is its effectively a learning cost, the inexpirienced kid is going to accidentally make mistakes which forces you to start over on the entire piece which costs you manhours and material to start over again
but you also cant become good at your job without first being the inexpirienced kid that fucks up and learns from his/her mistakes so somebody inevitably has to foot the bill
BogusException t1_j96q069 wrote
So... we need to either pay them less, or charge more for their work?
...this is hard...
[deleted] t1_j957pde wrote
"Free" market, fuck yea.
XD
We're worlds eaters. This civilization will fail. Countries like ruSSia are already dead, USA is slowly falling apart, some UE countries are getting worst and worst.
TheDogecoinBoi t1_j93tj5g wrote
this doesn't really feel worthy of this subreddit
swisscriss t1_j9239ju wrote
In my opinion there needs to be a drastic overhaul of the current laws. Currently the kids that work in my restaurant are only allowed to work a set number of hours per week, but since their parents often have second jobs I need people to cover open and close Explaining that you can't tell the nice lady from the county you're tired from working the fryolator is hard to do with someone with a third grade education
ThePresidentsNipples t1_j9253yg wrote
A landlord too. Damn you speed running evil
swisscriss t1_j92bp6p wrote
How else could they pay their rent?
ryanfea t1_j93wciw wrote
Are you playing a character or what?
swisscriss t1_j93xpsf wrote
What do you mean?
ryanfea t1_j93xwbw wrote
I mean, from reading these comments and a brief scan of your profile, it’s hard to believe you’re a real person
somedave t1_j95dxbz wrote
I agree I think it's a troll account
swisscriss t1_j93yda0 wrote
Just like I regularly tell law enforcement when they show up at my house; everything I have ever said has been entirely in earnest
openly_gray t1_j9233mf wrote
This type of abuse will continue until execs do hard time. The get the big paychecks so the buck stops with them