brianvan t1_ivwaxd5 wrote
Reply to comment by CactusBoyScout in New changes to 8th Ave create much wider pedestrian space, organize and calm a formerly chaotic place by Miser
It’s not the reason.
If it becomes the kind of project where they have to relocate physical parts of the street itself (rather than things painted on, bolted on or plopped down) it becomes a giant, unwieldy thing requiring NYC’s capital construction agency to step in, plus the underground utilities to be accounted for (and relocated when needed; if you have to move sewers, you also have to touch phone lines, gas lines, electric lines, steam lines, maybe even subway infra)
Such a project takes years to budget and execute.
I believe “things should be different” but it’s a system that includes century-old pipes and telecom stuff dating back older than any of us, and it’s always been extremely poorly organized, and there’s strong political resistance to fixing it (the utility companies are private-sector corporations that cooperate very poorly with public-sector interests & are governed by Albany) so its never going to be easy or cheap to dig up, regrade and reconfigure a Manhattan roadway.
In light of this, DOT’s approach is reasonable.
CactusBoyScout t1_ivwcb21 wrote
I understand it’s complicated and costly. But they did it in Times Square and they could at least announce plans or intentions to do it other places.
It’s fine if their current approach is meant to be some temporary test. But once they’re done testing these things and haven’t found any big issues they should move on to planning something more permanent like an actual widening of the sidewalk.
Otherwise we end up with situations like the Willoughby Open Street where some powerful city insider got all the barriers removed one day with no input from anyone and it took a big public outcry to bring them back. Real physical changes are much harder to undo on a whim.
brianvan t1_ivwczgq wrote
The Times Square thing was not done as a fully permanent installation on the first run. What was done in the end was EXPENSIVE (tens of millions) and still isn’t perfect (bike lane sucks) and is still getting substantially dug up and rebuilt often (subway entrance expansion at 42nd). It’s good that they did it… but it sops up a discouraging amount of money to do things like that. Madison Square/Flatiron, reconfigured years ago, is still mostly paint + plastic + original curbs.
But you’re right; permanent changes should be budgeted now. If they’re not, it’ll take much longer to get to the point that you can do them (the construction itself goes pretty quickly; all the preparation takes forever)
CactusBoyScout t1_ivwdgai wrote
Yeah it just feels like this massive tease that they gave Times Square such a nice, permanent, pedestrian-focused redesign more than a decade ago and really haven’t done anything like it since in other places. Just plastic bollards and paint for the most part.
brianvan t1_ivwdo5x wrote
And to think the Times Square changes had lots of opponents! Incredible that opponents making the same hollow, vicious arguments still get projects scaled back or spiked
lbrtsn t1_ivweez9 wrote
Wow an actual informative reasonable back and forth discussion about street design on the internet
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