Comments
drpvn t1_iz5luwh wrote
I hate this sort of article. Just someone banging out words for a deadline.
>Yet there is little available data that draws a neat line between mental illness and crime, let alone violent crime.
Ok, so there's "little available data that draws a neat line"? Surely they'll discuss what that small amount of data is? No? No.
>Several studies, which did not look specifically at New York City, have concluded that people with mental illness are more likely to be victims of crime than perpetrators.
Gibberish, since it does not refute the idea that people with mental illness are more likely to commit crimes than people without mental illness.
>Experts in mental health care said they want to see the city and state taking more direct steps to help people who may need housing and psychiatric care. But they are concerned that the new policy isn’t nuanced enough to avoid criminalizing mental illness broadly, especially without clear data that shows a relationship between mental crisis and committing crimes.
Ok, now the writer is asserting--providing no evidence--that there are no "clear data that shows a relationship between mental crisis and committing crimes." I guess "little clear data" means "no clear data" in this universe.
>[Quote from a guy who doesn't like the policy]
Ok.
>Several high-profile crimes in recent years have drawn attention to mental illness as a possible predictor for assaults, or worse. Perhaps most infamously, the man who pushed Michelle Go in front of a subway train in January was deemed mentally unfit for trial.
>In May, police officials offered statistics at a City Council hearing showing that at least half of people arrested for hate crimes in the first four months of the year were already designated by the department as “emotionally disturbed.”
So far, the only data presented in the article suggests there actually may be some correlation between mental illness and criminal activity.
>[several paragraphs of Adams saying stuff.>
Ok.
>Yet experts said that Adams’ rhetoric broadly tying mental illness to crime was unfounded.
Ok, now presumably we're going to have an expert explain how it's not true that people with mental illness are more likely to commit crimes. . .
>"There's no cause and effect (of) if someone has a mental illness, they’re inevitably going to commit a violent crime. Absolutely not the case,” said Ruth O’Sullivan, the clinical director for Brooklyn Mental Health Court.
But instead we got an expert saying that having mental illness doesn't automatically mean you will commit violent crimes. Again, this is off-point gibberish.
A few paragraphs on . . .
>While data tends to show a connection between incarceration and mental illness, experts said it’s not clear that there is any causal relationship between having a chronic issue such as schizophrenia or a behavioral disorder and committing crimes. Jail may exacerbate mental illness due to lack of treatment, they said.
Ok, so now we learn that there is in fact a correlation between incarceration and mental illness, but we're told to ignore that because unnamed "experts" say that incarceration may cause mental illness. Fair enough.
A few paragraphs on:
>To be sure, O’Sullivan said she believes, based on her experience, that people experiencing both a total lack of shelter and untreated mental illness are more likely to commit acts of violence.
So now we're almost at the end of this article and the writer drops the statement that an expert believes that homeless mentally ill people are more likely to commit violent crimes.
drpvn t1_iz5mixf wrote
The question isn’t whether someone with mental illness invariably commits crimes. It’s whether there’s a correlation.
But yes, the term should be defined. Half of America is probably mentally ill under the broadest definition. I know I am.
Wowzlul t1_iz5ohey wrote
Modern reporting is a lot more vibes than facts. Takes an inordinate amount of effort to separate what the author is speculating/opining vs what he's reporting, which yes here is very little.
It would be more difficult but more intellectually honest to make the case that while mental illness and criminal behavior are positively correlated that's not sufficient to justify this policy choice. Dunno why the author is so strenuously avoiding doing that.
ViennettaLurker t1_iz5ozam wrote
Hunger leads to crime. Homelessness leads to crime. Alcohol leads to crime.
Cops. Cops everywhere. Always cops. Cops crammed into every sandwich, bedroom closet and microbrew. More cops. More more cops. No government workers but cops. Trillion dollar budget for cops. Cops solve the problem of too many cops. You're a cop. I'm a cop. We all have to be cops. The island of Manhattan lifted up from the ocean on the backs of an army of cops. No more trains only cops carrying cops to other cops.
brownredgreen t1_iz5r3ao wrote
Does Adams have a degree in Criminology, Psychology, Sociology or any relevant field to make such a claim?
NetQuarterLatte t1_iz5zz6y wrote
Cops save lives though. Deterrence is a lot better than incarceration.
>Williams and his colleagues find adding a new police officer to a city prevents between 0.06 and 0.1 homicides. [...] Adding more police, they find, also reduces other serious crimes, like robbery, rape, and aggravated assault.
>
>Even more, Williams and his coauthors find that, in the average city, larger police forces result in Black lives saved at about twice the rate of white lives saved (relative to their percentage of the population). When you consider African Americans are much more likely to live in dense, poverty-stricken areas with high homicide rates — leading to more opportunities for police officers to potentially prevent victimization — that may help explain this finding.
>
>...
>
>While they find serious crimes fall after the average city expands its police force, the economists find that arrests for serious crimes also fall. The simultaneous reduction of both serious crime and arrests for serious crime suggests it's not arrests that are driving the reduction. Instead, it suggests merely having more police officers around drives it. These findings are consistent with other research that finds concentrating police in "hotspot" crime areas appears to be an effective way to reduce crime.
Ref:
TheEveningDragon t1_iz60cl1 wrote
POVERTY CREATES AND EXACERBATES MENTAL ILLNESS AND ADDICTION.
Mayor DeSantis here is once again blaming individuals for societal (see policy) problems.
ViennettaLurker t1_iz62b82 wrote
Living leads to crime. Fear of death leads to crime. Crime leads to crime.
Cops. Cops on cops. Never not cops. The crowding continues as cops increasingly have no space to move, pushing each other into the cop streets and jamming up the cop avenues. What is the solution? The brightest cops are put on the case.
After the discovery that the answer to every mathematical equation is "cops", a new field of cop science emerges. A deputized electron microscope aids in the creation of micro-cop technology to address the cop on cop crowding. As cops copulate with other cops to birth baby cops, micro cops fill the gaps between them. The previously understood limit of overall cop density is turned on its head. While human scale cops are jammed shoulder to shoulder and elbow to elbow, micro cops swarm around their waists and between their legs.
oddfuture t1_iz6a0oj wrote
Interesting of you to highlight that in your post and then not include this from the paper's abstract: "larger police forces make more arrests for low-level “quality-of-life” offenses, with effects that imply a disproportionate burden for Black Americans."
NetQuarterLatte t1_iz6cyqv wrote
Like we all know that assigning a full white police force to police a black community is not a good recipe.
That's why it's important when cops represent the demographics of the communities they serve. This used to be what the progressive agenda advocated for.
But now we have this new brand of "progressiveness" that just want to defund the police or even go against police training to reduce brutality.
oddfuture t1_iz6e63i wrote
Your comment is reductive and does not address the point I raised. The paper does not make any mention of representation within police forces.
LoserBroadside t1_iz6flmf wrote
Downvote this person all you want, it won't make them any less right. Might as well try to downvote reality itself.
NetQuarterLatte t1_iz6ieac wrote
They do mention the issues of increasing policing in cities with large Black populations in the south and the mid-west.
Maybe they didn't mention anything about the representation of the police force explicitly (and perhaps will be a subject of follow up studies), but I think you know how the police force in those regions look like.
mikeluscher159 t1_iz6ttcq wrote
It can, and often does
But you can't pin crime completely on mental illness
filthysize t1_iz6uqt2 wrote
There are several hyperlinks in the article linking to the studies being cited. That's par the course for online reporting now, to use source linking instead of source citations.
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iz7407f wrote
> But now we have this new brand of "progressiveness" that just want to defund the police or even go against police training to reduce brutality.
[citation needed]
NetQuarterLatte t1_iz7elkx wrote
For example, AOC voting against the Invest to Protect Act that proposed funding for de-escalation training for police departments.
Evening_Presence_927 t1_iz7j0ye wrote
Show me the exact contents of that bill.
NetQuarterLatte t1_iz7rfkk wrote
Just click the “H. R. 6448” link in the vote page
WickhamAkimbo t1_iz7rpkr wrote
The group with the highest poverty rate in the city has the lowest crime rate. Blaming crime almost entirely on poverty is just as stupid as claiming poverty has no impact. Both are denying reality.
You can't fix cultural and personal issues by ignoring them and blaming only society.
WickhamAkimbo t1_iz7rr5e wrote
Then he would be correct in many cases.
mymindisgoo t1_iz8hpy8 wrote
I'm sure there are at least some people with anxiety and or depression committing crimes.
Happy-Investigator- t1_iz94yk9 wrote
I’m pretty sure Adams is referring to severe, chronic, and life-debilitating disorders such as schizophrenia, schizoaffective, substance abuse, and untreated bipolar disorder. Not to say having MDD or an eating disorder isn’t severe, but just that some illnesses can be stabilized much more than others.
In our culture, there’s been a lot of attention paid to “mental health awareness” and “neurodiversity”, but very little attention paid to those who’ve been robbed of their humanity sleeping in their own feces because of how severe mental illness can really get. Also keep in mind, the percentage of people with schizophrenia who become homeless is fairly large. NAMI estimates it to be around 20-35% of the schizophrenic population. These people have a tendency to turn to substance abuse once they’re out on the street as any severe mental illness can cause and as long as you know someone with a psychotic condition, psychosis and drug abuse is a dangerous combination, not only for people but the addict as well.
The media does not want to showcase the homeless schizophrenic as an an example of mental illness; they’d rather choose a celebrity who’s healing his/her depression with yoga instead which is likely why we won’t reach a shared definition of “mental illness “. Adams is speaking of severe mental illness, but in a culture where everyone competes for victim points on TikTok, I doubt what is meant by “severe mental illness “ can even be understood in the minds of the illiberals.
azebac01 t1_ize3uhi wrote
I don’t think he is referring to this and I don’t think that’s the first thing someone who hears what he said connects his statement to.
azebac01 t1_ize3wte wrote
Although he didn’t state it, I don’t think he needs to directly specify this. We all know what he means.
azebac01 t1_ize3xif wrote
azebac01 t1_ize3z97 wrote
Yes. ⬆️ although probably not the majority of the attacks we have seen in NYC.
azebac01 t1_ize43am wrote
While these statements about him may be true, he has a point.
azebac01 t1_ize45eg wrote
I don’t think he was pinning it directly on mental illness, only that a large part of the crimes we are seeing are due to it.
azebac01 t1_ize46hs wrote
azebac01 t1_ize4822 wrote
Lmao. Funny comment.
azebac01 t1_ize4am8 wrote
No. Im sure those who advise him on these matters probably do though.
The_Lone_Apple t1_iz5h8lh wrote
Then he needs to define "mental illness" because I don't think someone suffering from anxiety or depression is committing any crimes.