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DJ_Jonezy t1_j982rov wrote

Edit: sorry for the lack of paragraphs. Reddit decided to merge them when I copy-pasted this part for some reason

Well here, I think it's important to distinguish between good and bad, and moral and immoral. Maybe your action wasn't ultimately bad (aside from the trauma you might've given to the kids but work with me here), but it was immoral because you did something that had a great risk of death, even if it didn't end up happening. Like if you leave a loaded gun in a room with a toddler and he goes on an killing spree in the local Walmart, you can't really use the excuse 'but I didn't do anything, I didn't actually kill those people'. It's like yeah, but you neglectfully did something that you knew had a great risk attached to it. So let's go back to the 'good/bad', 'moral/immoral' table here. I'd say what makes something ultimately good or bad is based on how much negative or positive emotion it produces, measured in serotonin, dopamine, oxytocin, etc. If it's a net positive, it was good, and if it's a net negative, it's bad. You get it. And whether something is moral or immoral is based on whether a moral agent (that is, a person who has the ability to make decisions) acted in a way that was likely to cause harm. Meaning if two people shoot up in the air but only one of the bullets lands on someone and kill them, while one of the actions was worse they were both morally equal. It also means that, say, hypothetically if the long-term consequences of WW2 are ultimately good, that doesn't make a certain sussy moustache man a moral person. This flies in the face of the philosophy of a dude named Immanuel Kant and his idea of a 'categorical imperative'. He thought that there was this big list of moral codes [list of rules that gets progressively sussier] that are always wrong to break, no matter what. He uses the example of someone with a family opening the door after getting a knock. Standing there is a psycho axe murderer who asks him where his family is. Now the question is, should he lie? Well I think most people would say yes. While lying is usually wrong, doing it to save your family is ultimately good. But Kant would disagree. He says that if you were to lie and say they're not home, the psycho axe murderer would disappointedly turn around and walk away, thinking about how he's an embarrassment to his psycho axe murderer ancestors when all of a sudden, he sees your family climbing out of the window. Turns out they overheard the conversation and decided to escape, but if the guy had just told him the truth that they were in fact home, they would've had a chance to escape. Now, I've been keeping a veneer of objectivity in this video so far, but I've gotta say this is one of the dumbest ideas in philosophy I've ever heard. I mean, leaving aside that he's totally taking for granted that the family would overhear the killer and try to escape through a window that's conveniently in his line of sight, you're tellin' me if a billion people were strapped to a conveyer belt being dragged to the pits of Hell, and you can stop it all by slapping a kitten, he'd be like 'nah bruh it's still fucked up like you can't justify slapping a kitten over anything durrr". Like HUH? Are you ok bro? Side note he was also a weird dude. Apparently in his 79 years of life he never ventured 20 miles away from his home to go to the coast. I mean, I think he'd be right at home with the Discord moderators of today. But anyway, what I'm getting at here is that the ultimate good we can strive for is positive human emotion. Now while this sounds obvious, once you take it into consideration, you'll start to spot people all around you, whether that's a co-worker by the watercooler or the mailman or whatever, who justify their ethical beliefs based on things that have nothing to do with the betterment of human wellbeing. I remember when I was around 15 or 16 I considered myself a 'libertarian'. And not a kinda cool libertarian, like yeah, like that kinda libertarian. I thought of freedom as the highest possible good. 'We should always strive to maximise freedom!'. Now, looking back this lacked any kind of class analysis and only served the interests of the bourgeoise, but I digress. Eventually, I started to think 'hey... maybe businesses shouldn't be allowed to deny services to people based on their race or sexuality'. I mean yeah it might be restricting freedom, but these people are just making the world a worse place for people who are already getting fucked over on a daily basis. What great harm is gonna come about if old Cletus has to bake a cake for a couple of femboys, huh? I then started noticing this way of thinking in just about every debate with a conservative. They'd make points like 'yeah maybe kids should learn about gay people, but that's the place of the parents to teach, not the school!' So we're acknowledging that learning gay people exist normalises them and would lead to less discrimination, and many parents aren't willing to do that, but schools shouldn't because... it's the parents' "place"? It's appealing to this mystical order that things have to be in. 'You have schools that teach a2 + b2 = c2, the parents teach social issues if they want, and there's no mixin''! It's like, did you ever sit down and think 'what policy would ultimately be the best for human wellbeing? 'What I'm referencing here is known as a 'core value' or 'axiom'. Most people have no idea what theirs is, despite having no shortage of opinions on ethics and politics. They generally base their views on their culture around them and what they feel is right. They'll say things like "I think men should pay on the first date because that's just how it's meant to be!" and "I think criminals should face brutal punishment because... they deserve it!" despite these attitudes objectively leading to tangible harm. The truth is, if we want to build the best society we can, we have to first establish wellbeing as our axiom and use science to decide how to best achieve the maximisation of that axiom. Anyway, I hope you enjoyed this video. It was my first attempt at an animated video essay thing, so please leave any thoughts, criticism or questions in the comments, smash like and sub to help with the algorithm, click here to watch a video where we build a society from scratch by going through each political and economic system to decide which is best, and I'll catchya later nerds!

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ADefiniteDescription t1_j9b9euj wrote

Your explanation of Kant is so far off I can't imagine you've ever read him, any Kantians or any reputable introductory ethics text.

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DJ_Jonezy t1_j9ba1v9 wrote

Can you elaborate on what I got wrong?

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ADefiniteDescription t1_j9bbub6 wrote

> He thought that there was this big list of moral codes [list of rules that gets progressively sussier]

This isn't true. There's only three or four formulations of the CI depending on your interpretation.

>He uses the example of someone with a family opening the door after getting a knock. Standing there is a psycho axe murderer who asks him where his family is. Now the question is, should he lie? Well I think most people would say yes.

Beside the point for Kant interpretation but why should I think the fact that most people would say you should do something as good evidence for doing it? People get moral judgments wrong all the time, especially when you introduce features that test their rational consistency.

>While lying is usually wrong, doing it to save your family is ultimately good. But Kant would disagree. He says that if you were to lie and say they're not home, the psycho axe murderer would disappointedly turn around and walk away, thinking about how he's an embarrassment to his psycho axe murderer ancestors when all of a sudden, he sees your family climbing out of the window. Turns out they overheard the conversation and decided to escape, but if the guy had just told him the truth that they were in fact home, they would've had a chance to escape. Now, I've been keeping a veneer of objectivity in this video so far, but I've gotta say this is one of the dumbest ideas in philosophy I've ever heard.

Kant definitely doesn't say anything like this, and you haven't even attempted an explanation of why Kant thinks lying is morally wrong. Even if you disagree with Kant's reasons for thinking lying is morally wrong, he never claims that the axe murderer will act in this way.

> I mean, leaving aside that he's totally taking for granted that the family would overhear the killer and try to escape through a window that's conveniently in his line of sight, you're tellin' me if a billion people were strapped to a conveyer belt being dragged to the pits of Hell, and you can stop it all by slapping a kitten, he'd be like 'nah bruh it's still fucked up like you can't justify slapping a kitten over anything durrr"

Kant famously doesn't think animals are owed anything and that the value of people is always superior to the value of things (e.g. cats), and thus he would never say this.

Given the above, I think you could really benefit from sitting down and reading Kant. More generally, if you find yourself saying something like "This extremely influential and well-respected philosopher is obviously wrong", the principle of charity would suggest you probably misunderstood them.

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DJ_Jonezy t1_j9be3qf wrote

>This isn't true. There's only three or four formulations of the CI depending on your interpretation.

Wdym by "four formulations of the CI"?

>Beside the point for Kant interpretation but why should I think the fact that most people would say you should do something as good evidence for doing it? People get moral judgments wrong all the time, especially when you introduce features that test their rational consistency.

I was just pointing out that most people would say yes. I wasn't using that as evidence

>Kant famously doesn't think animals are owed anything and that the value of people is always superior to the value of things (e.g. cats), and thus he would never say this.

Oh interesting, I didn't know that. I'll clarify that in the video then

>Given the above, I think you could really benefit from sitting down and reading Kant. More generally, if you find yourself saying something like "This extremely influential and well-respected philosopher is obviously wrong", the principle of charity would suggest you probably misunderstood them.

Fair, fair. Thanks for your response

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ADefiniteDescription t1_j9bfu25 wrote

In Chapter 2 of the Groundwork Kant lays out the various formulations of the Categorical Imperative, explaining how they work and giving examples of their use. If you read one thing of Kant it should be that.

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