brutinator t1_j9jwxaw wrote
Reply to comment by Killercod1 in Thought experiments claim to use our intuitive responses to generate philosophical insights. But these scenarios are deceptive. Moral intuitions depend heavily on context and the individual. by IAI_Admin
I dont really agree. I agree that we might not know what the objective morality is, but I do think that we cant say that the existence of an objective moral theory doesnt exist.
Killercod1 t1_j9jx5q7 wrote
Why should we all adhere to one interpretation of good?
brutinator t1_j9k9ldf wrote
Why shouldnt we, if the hypothetical interpretation is the correct one?
Killercod1 t1_j9k9tj0 wrote
What makes it the correct one?
brutinator t1_j9kkmaq wrote
Thats not the question. I am not listing what makes a correct ethical theory, I am asking why a correct ethical theory should not exist.
Killercod1 t1_j9knkop wrote
It can be personally correct to you (or your group), as in it's consistent with your beliefs and desires. It may be a correct ethical theory, not the correct ethical theory (which is what "objective morality" is attempting to establish). However, using the word "correct" to define an ethical theory, is ridiculous. There's no way to prove it's correct, it doesn't make any sense to assume it can be correct. How would you define a wrong ethical theory?
brutinator t1_j9krgae wrote
Youre avoiding the question, or assuming Im saying something different.
A correct ethical theory is one that maximizes good, a wrong one is one that does not.
Again, Im not trying to define what THE correct ethical theory is. But we can say that some ethical theories are better than others. For example, the ethical theory "Murder every single person you encounter" is obviously not a good one. So it seems a logical conclusion that one is the best. What it is, I dont know.
But lets assume it exists, and is known: a system that maximizes good with no downsides.
Why shouldnt it be universally followed?
Killercod1 t1_j9kv4db wrote
What is "good"? Why should it be maximized? You sound like a zealous utilitarian.
Playing devils advocate here: why isn't killing a good thing? What's so obviously wrong about it? Perhaps, one may consider human life evil and seek for it's complete extinction. PETA members come to mind. Perhaps, human life isn't as valuable as capitalist profit is. Economy > humanity. There's some that would die on that hill to enforce these ethics.
Obviously, I dont subscribe to these ideas. I consider myself a humanist that wishes to maximize humanity's health and well-being. However, even the question of what is "health" and "well-being", is up for debate.
Whether or not something should be universally followed, is an opinion. Particularly, the "should" implies subjectivity. It's completely dependent on your personal beliefs and goals. In the real world, not everyone shares those beliefs and goals. Morals and ethics seem objective, until they face contradicting counterparts. Leading to war.
brutinator t1_j9kznhz wrote
Youre not playing devil's advocate, youre ignoring the question and diverting the discussion. If you are going to argue that all actions are amoral and/or equally ethical, then we have no basis to continuing this discussion. To put it in your terms, why bother being a "humanist" if all actions are equally healthy and increasing well being?
All youre saying is that because we dont know, we shouldnt subscribe to a single belief. While I think that position alone is contestible, thats not the question Im asking, and truth be told, is a little tautological. Obviously people cant do what they dont know.
To reiterate it a third time, if we DO know a universal ethical theory, why shouldnt everyone follow it?
Killercod1 t1_j9l3r2y wrote
Ethics have no quantifiable value. Since you cannot physically measure how "good" something is, it's entirely subjective. I'm not saying everything is equally valuable. I'm saying that there's no way to objectively determine the moral value of something. You can only determine it's value to individual people and groups. What would an all-encompassing good look like?
You always act in your own interest, even if those interests are for someone else's well-being. Your morals are your values. I never said you should be amoral. I'm sharing the fact that there are those with different values. You can call them evil, if you want. But, they will continue to exist. They may even overpower you.
You would have to prove that there is an ethical theory that trumps all others. This is conflicting with real world conditions, because there isn't one. Some people's values may align with other's. But, it's not true for everyone. The only way to make your ethics universal, is to defeat all contradicting ethics and people who uphold them. In doing so, you would be considered a fascist. The road of good intentions is paved with blood.
The point is, by enforcing your "universal objective" ethical theory, you would be eliminating all others. Who's not to say that you're the evil one?
brutinator t1_j9lbgjh wrote
Gotcha. Im not going to engage in this anymore because you are refusing to answer the central question.
Again, WHAT the "best" theory is is out of scope. I frankly do not care what it looks like.
Again, if you are going to suggest that "good" and "bad" do not exist, then I think the field of ethics is not for you: the entire core supposition of the field is that there exists good of varying degrees. What that is? How to achieve it? Sure, those are things to discuss, but it inherently relies on the premise that you CAN measure moral value. Show me a single ethical theory with decent standing that says that you can not determine if something is good or bad.
Again, you are constructing strawmen to argue against instead of engaging with the question. Never did I say everyone should be forcibly made to adhere to an arbitrarily decided moral code. Is every action that you do the same as everyone else enforced upon you by the threat of external violence? Do you eat? Do you drink water? Do you breath oxygen? Do you do those things because youll be executed if you dont? If no, then clearly there are things that everyone does, and can do, without the need for external violence. But I digress because, again, its out of the scope of the question.
Good bye.
Killercod1 t1_j9lgmzc wrote
Since "good" and "bad" cannot be materially measured, they can only be subjectively determined. They are social constructions, concepts. It's totally illogical to insist that they can be measured. You can only measure material.
How else would you make everyone adhere to your "universal" ethics, other than by enforcing them? Perhaps, you convince people otherwise. However, if you find someone adamantly opposed to it, their existence would contradict your universal theory. As it obviously wouldn't be universal if there's other conflicting ethics that exist.
People perform basic necessary tasks to live. By not performing them, they would be executing themselves, in a sense. Values are materially driven. It's likely that your values have conformed to benefit your own material conditions. If they haven't, I would consider you illogical. Your actions would be unpredictable and inconsistent.
Happy cake day
frnzprf t1_j9o1prk wrote
I agree that there is no universal moral truth.
I heard once the story that Moses went down with the ten commandments and when he saw that the Isrealites worshipped a golden cow, he destroyed the stone tablets out of anger. Then he wrote down the ten commandments again, but slightly differently.
I don't know if that's true. He definitely destroyed the tablets once. It was surprisingly difficult to find the respective parts in the bible - I'm going to try again. The story might very well be not true!
The point is: Moral laws only matter if people know them and agree with them, so in the end what people think is the only thing that matters.
That's not the intentended meaning by the bible passages, they were probably just written by different people, or the author has forgotten what he has written the first time.
Edit: The relevant section is Exodus 34. God says that he will write the same words as on the first tablet. Then he goes on to state some commandments, which aren't the classical "10 commandments" but it's not clear to me which of them will go on the stone tablets or whether they are maybe just some additions that are not important enough to be written in stone.
The bible is not important to my point though - only subjective morals matter.
Sulfamide t1_j9loi05 wrote
Because it makes a more cohesive society.
Killercod1 t1_j9lpmx2 wrote
What if a conflicting society was the ideal? It would allow for one to express themselves. A cohesive society, may be an oppressive society.
Sulfamide t1_j9nrb5u wrote
> It would allow for one to express themselves
How so? What kind of expression?
And what type of conflict are you thinking of? Doesn’t conflict allow for violence and soffering? Is it possible for those to be ideal?
Killercod1 t1_j9obiln wrote
A difference in core values. Not everyone's situation is best suited for one ethical theory. It may be that you live in inhospitable conditions, requiring one to be unethical to survive and thrive.
Conflict allows for one to express their individualality and identity. Ethics and morals allow for violence as well, punishing the unruly. Anything can be ideal.
Sulfamide t1_j9ofk9u wrote
I am a gay man and I live in a muslim country where it is illegal and punished. If I had to choose, what should I wish for, that my people would share my values, or that suddenly the laws and ethics of my county allow for differences in values?
Right now I would choose the former as it would surely make me happier. I would be happier because on top of not having to hide, I would feel closer to my family, friends, and fellow countrymen. It is more important to me to share values with people than to be permitted to have different ones, as it seems to me more like a compromise than an ideal.
ulookingatme t1_j9na2ip wrote
Morality is subjective and is of a fungible nature. You can theorize all you like, but reality and history tells us this is true.
brutinator t1_j9oqoq2 wrote
Sure, just like how the sun revolved around the earth. After all, 'reality' and history told us that was true too.
Its a special kind of hubris to just decide that we know everything about anything.
ulookingatme t1_j9qy66c wrote
If you give me an example of one morally objective rule that is universally accepted I'd say you may have a point. Standing by.
brutinator t1_j9rbzg2 wrote
Its morally permissible to breathe.
ulookingatme t1_j9rv13c wrote
Tell that to the guy on death row.
brutinator t1_j9rxfck wrote
That's odd, I've never seen someone say that a guy on death row breathing is immoral or unethical. Want to show me some evidence of that?
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