koloki8a t1_iqqc4h8 wrote on October 2, 2022 at 9:43 AM

Reply to comment by ShalmaneserIII in Utopia”: meaning ‘no place’; from Greek: οὐ (not’) and τόπος (‘place’) by Sphaerocypraea

Utopia is the latin version of the greek word ουτοπία. “ου” and “u” are pronounced the same. So there’s no ambiguity really.

HamaHamaWamaSlama t1_iqr4lfh wrote on October 2, 2022 at 2:27 PM

“Ου” is not pronounced like “u”, it is pronounced like “oo” (not “o-o”, but “oo”, as in boom). The “ευ” in “eutopia” is pronounced like “ef”.

koloki8a t1_iqrb0an wrote on October 2, 2022 at 3:11 PM

Agreed yeah, I didn’t mean the english “u” but the latin “u” (same as italian “u”) are pronounced like the greek “ου”

DeathcultAesthete t1_iqr8vy2 wrote on October 2, 2022 at 2:57 PM

Following the IPA, <ou> is indeed pronounced as /u/.

[deleted] t1_iqrb1l9 wrote on October 2, 2022 at 3:11 PM

[deleted]

DeathcultAesthete t1_iqred5r wrote on October 2, 2022 at 3:34 PM

// indicate phonemes, the way a sound is presented within the speaker’s mind. <> indicate orthography. <u> in English is pronounced as /ju/, whereas <oo> as /u/. This distinction illustrates how orthography and pronunciation are two different things.

Provokateur t1_iqsmdmt wrote on October 2, 2022 at 8:08 PM

We don't know how classic Greek or Latin were pronounced. Because, you know, we don't have audio recordings from 400 BCE. All we have is what it's transitioned into through 2000 years of gradual changes.

Maybe church Latin is pronounced like that, or Italian, but that doesn't tell us much about classical Greek or Latin pronunciation.

What matters is what Thomas More had in mind, which--as the comment above you points out--was intentionally ambiguous.

Archmagnance1 t1_iqtvi4d wrote on October 3, 2022 at 1:23 AM

There are historical documents from the classical period that are about the pronunciation of latin. Ecclesiastical Latin is church Latin, hence the name, and Classical Latin is how it was (generally) spoken around the time of the texts.

A very easy example to point to is Ceasar being pronounced See-Zar like the salad or Kai-Zar. First is church approved latin and the second is classical.

Here's a couple videos by an Italian Linguist (english, italian, japanese, latin) who also does a lot of history content using primary sources that he can read.

https://youtu.be/x6Fg3RcYKJI differences between the types of latin

https://youtu.be/YlggQMFPjKw reviewing the latin used in Barbarians on Netflix.