aaronbgraham t1_irj3444 wrote on October 8, 2022 at 4:32 PM

James Gleick's "Chaos" is incredible for anyone who hasn't read it!

ukuskomara t1_irjf63x wrote on October 8, 2022 at 6:07 PM

Love that book. Mandelbrot gave a speech at my college & this was the only book I had on hand, but he graciously autographed it for me anyway.

Mmiguel6288 t1_irj6ird wrote on October 8, 2022 at 4:59 PM

Apart from the De Broglie Bohm interpretation of quantum mechanics which posits the statistical unpredictability in QM is due solely to deterministic chaos

GameKyuubi t1_irjcj04 wrote on October 8, 2022 at 5:46 PM

wow determinism is really detested in here lmao

Mmiguel6288 t1_irjdcrp wrote on October 8, 2022 at 5:53 PM

I would say mostly because it is not compatible with libertarian free will and absolute objective morality.

86LeperMessiah t1_irjh1t8 wrote on October 8, 2022 at 6:22 PM

What is funny is that it actually is the other way around, determinism entails free will, I choose one thing over the other because of reasons, if non-determisim was the reality then I would ultimately choose one thing over the other because of randomnes, and that is the opposite of free will. If the choosing is done via randomness then there is no choice making agent.

Mmiguel6288 t1_irji6qc wrote on October 8, 2022 at 6:31 PM

Randomness does not explain libertarian free will - agreed.

But concluding that libertarian free will must therefore be explained by the non-existence of randomness is not a valid logical step.

If everything in the universe is causally determined, then that does not explain libertarian free will either.

In my view, libertarian free will is self contradictory, and is compatible with neither a deterministic nor a nondeterministic universe.

86LeperMessiah t1_irjsalh wrote on October 8, 2022 at 7:55 PM

Yes, libertarian free will is self contradictory, I didn't make it clear that I wasn't making a case for that position in specific, my bad.

Sans_Junior t1_irjdogn wrote on October 8, 2022 at 5:55 PM

Setting aside that both sets are bounded by finite equations, shouldn’t “chaos” have some major role in defining “reality”?

iiioiia t1_irj9t63 wrote on October 8, 2022 at 5:25 PM

> Chaos is a deterministic process which is "simply" dependent on changes to initial conditions.

Is this not technically only a theory? It is important that chaos can emerge from deterministic systems, but whether all instances of chaos emerge only from deterministic systems is another matter (although, perhaps it is a "by definition" issue, as opposed to a "what is reality actually composed of" issue, or reference vs referent).

At least, there seem to be some competing theories: Non-deterministic chaos.

microli t1_irjegrl wrote on October 8, 2022 at 6:02 PM

Deterministic and non-deterministic chaos are not competing theories. They are just definitions of two different types of phenomena.

iiioiia t1_irjek3r wrote on October 8, 2022 at 6:02 PM

Thank you, that's exactly what I was wondering.

GameKyuubi t1_irjd1ej wrote on October 8, 2022 at 5:50 PM

> Is this not technically only a theory?

evolution is "only a theory". the point is there is no known exception, and all we can do is look for exceptions. if you give one I'm sure people would be interested to hear about it.

iiioiia t1_irjdvhx wrote on October 8, 2022 at 5:57 PM

> evolution is "only a theory".

I disagree. Evolution is a theory that is also backed by substantial physical evidence, as well as a fairly comprehensive and sound narrative with substantial explanatory power that has sustained substantial challenges from many ideological camps for decades.

> the point is there is no known exception, and all we can do is look for exceptions.

Thus, a theory, one without substantive accompanying evidence comparable to that which exists for other theories that have been elevated to a higher epistemic level based on broad scientific (and other) consensus.

> if you give one I'm sure people would be interested to hear about it.

I am not making a contradictory claim, I am asking a question.

I find it odd how seemingly close minded and insular science has become in the 21st century, which is rather contrary to the self-serving self-description of the domain and the actors within it. Luckily, we only have mirrors in the physical realm. But then you never know what science, or something else, will come up with next.

GameKyuubi t1_irp18te wrote on October 9, 2022 at 11:00 PM

> I am not making a contradictory claim, I am asking a question.

Right. The answer to your question is it's a "by definition" issue. If we ignore the loaded colloquial use of the word, "chaos" is the name for psuedorandom phenomena that arise from deterministic simpler conditions. Stuff that is not deterministic would not be strictly classified as "chaos" in my opinion, it would be called something else. Chaos is the name of an observed phenomena. Chaos Theory is the name of the branch of science that studies that phenomena.

> Thus, a theory, one without substantive accompanying evidence comparable to that which exists for other theories that have been elevated to a higher epistemic level based on broad scientific (and other) consensus.

Bro what are you smoking we've studied plenty of chaotic phenomena the whole idea of chaos is that you can have deterministic functions that produce pseudorandom output. All of the entire corpus of scientific literature is based on the fact that we haven't found an exception to this rule yet. How can you imply there is not significant consensus on this issue?

> I find it odd how seemingly close minded and insular science has become in the 21st century, which is rather contrary to the self-serving self-description of the domain and the actors within it.

I find it wack how smarmy people can be when they don't understand the basics of what they are talking about

iiioiia t1_irry197 wrote on October 10, 2022 at 4:10 PM

> If we ignore the loaded colloquial use of the word...

Be careful perceiving subjective terms ("loaded") as objective (unless I'm misinterpreting your meaning....in which case, never mind / pardon me).

> Stuff that is not deterministic would not be strictly classified as "chaos" in my opinion...

Should not may be more appropriate, considering that we are dealing with human beings here. But again, we're still dealing with the "by definition" phenomenon, or "the word has the appearance of being the thing", particularly at runtime.

> Chaos is the name of an observed phenomena.

Which is fundamentally, an appearance/perspective, as opposed to the phenomena itself.

> Chaos Theory is the name of the branch of science that studies that phenomena.

Aspires to study it, technically.

> Bro what are you smoking...

In this case: ontology and epistemology.

> ...we've studied plenty of chaotic phenomena the whole idea of chaos is that you can have deterministic functions that produce pseudorandom output.

I don't disagree with this, my general beef is that I get the feeling that there is a tendency for people to lean towards the conclusion that random output is necessarily derived from deterministic phenomena, and that this bias is falsely (but not with intent - see: lying vs speaking untruthfully) framed as being ~scientific/logical.

> All of the entire corpus of scientific literature is based on the fact that we haven't found an exception to this rule yet.

This is an ontological & epistemic manner, and is also inherently subjective (but may have the appearance of being objective. See: "we are dealing with human beings here".

> How can you imply there is not significant consensus on this issue?

I don't believe I have done this, have I? If you can quote my text I'd appreciate it, because that would be an error on my part I'd think. I suspect it's simply a standard misunderstanding.

>> I find it odd how seemingly close minded and insular science has become in the 21st century, which is rather contrary to the self-serving self-description of the domain and the actors within it.

> I find it wack how smarmy people can be when they don't understand the basics of what they are talking about.

I think this is a classic subjective vs objective misunderstanding, probably some cultural "colloquial communication" norms are in play as well.

Let's investigate:

>> ....when they don't understand the basics of what they are talking about.

What is it that you believe that I do not understand the basics of?

Quantum philosophy: 4 ways physics will challenge your reality

vrkas t1_irj21rn wrote on October 8, 2022 at 4:23 PM