Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments

Butt_Putnam t1_irxh4cx wrote

Reply to comment by glass_superman in The Philosophical Underpinning of “War Crimes” Statutes by ADefiniteDescription

Upvoting because it's a good question, but I couldn't disagree more with the premise. In Discipline and Punish Michel Foucault lays out an argument about why the criminal justice systems of the western world shifted from public torture and execution to a prison system. It's very well worth the read and I could not do it justice, but I'll try to lay out a argument from it. There are a few points from it worth bringing up. Public torture and executions were considered a right of the sovereign whose laws were broken. The severity of the punishment was not simply about the degree to which the law had been broken, but rather a display to the public of the sovereign upholding their end of the social contract. The power that sovereigns had to wield was justified by the notion that their laws and their rule protected those under it, and public displays were a signal that they upheld their end of the social contract, provided the order that they claimed to, and reinforced the notion that they had the right to employ that force. What ultimately abolished such displays was a change in the philosophy behind them. It was a deeper understanding of the inherent flaws of that system. It too easily evokes sympathy for the punished and may tilt public opinion against the sovereign. In times when the people do not feel the sovereign is upholding their end of the social contract, it provokes them, and directs their attention towards the sovereign. The shift towards gentler discipline, more private and less extreme forms of punishment, was the result of philosophical advancement, and the shift occurred in less than a century.

It's important to note that Foucault did not think that the shift was an effort to become more humanitarian, but rather a technological progression in our philosophy of power. But the advancement of this philosophy had a radical effect on how those subjected to criminal justice systems were treated.

Is it unreasonable to think that war crimes, which are also an application of power by rulers, for the purpose of control, could also change drastically in the way they manifest as a result of greater public understanding of the effects they have?

45

glass_superman t1_iryren4 wrote

>Upvoting because it's a good question, but I couldn't disagree more with the premise.

I love this! This is what we ought to be about, right?

What you say makes a lot of sense. I do agree that there is room for studying what we do to criminals and why. We came a long way from what you described to, for example: https://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=60 (read some 20 or so pages, perhaps 15 minutes?)

I guess that my concern is more about the practical. What's the point in determining that if Putin should be imprisoned given that we can't do it,

In practice, I do see use in that we might get the definition right and then teach our kids so well that we potentially raise a society that would never wage an unjust war (for whatever definition of unjust you want).

Or I suppose that maybe some 15 year old in Azerbaijan or whatever will in 30 years be the leader of the nation and maybe he'll remember Biden wagging his finger at Putin and learn right from wrong and he'll not wage a war because he learned morals that way.

But I just read and article proclaim that Biden is calling Putin a war criminal like it's some big proclamation that is going to have any effect on this war and I think that is bullshit. The outcome of this war is unaffected by such a proclamation.

In conclusion, studying war so that we can teach our kids morals around war is good. Beyond that, these moral judgements on an active war seem pointless.

As before, please disagree, up vote, and educate me!

4

Gasablanca t1_irzqy0w wrote

I enjoy your discussions. This is why I am in this sub.

6

My3rstAccount t1_irywudp wrote

Didn't that happen in China with the rise of the Confucian emperors. Basically if you act like people deserve to live or are good, they'll behave that way.

3

HowTheWestWS t1_it1g6ya wrote

We’ve let the violent patriarch go on for far too long. Nobody should be able to cause war in any part of the Earth. It should literally be an immediate arrest for anyone that does it regardless of their position!

1