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Major_Pause_7866 t1_it0q4gm wrote

As a young man, just out of high school, I read Desmond Morris's The Naked Ape & The Human Zoo. Both books were enjoyable & they strongly reinforced my fledgling wariness of reason.
I accept we are creatures who evolved over billions of years & sometime in the recent past we began to develop language & civilizations. We are animals with evolved abilities like all creatures on this planet. Reason is an evolved ability that did not somehow leap past biological barriers & provide us with a god-like tool to unlock the mysteries of the universe. Sure we have honed this skill, language & mathematics have stretched its reach & scientific methods of repetition & peer checking have lessened many of the personal idiosyncrasies that have tainted research in the past.
However the faculty, that a lion uses to figure out when prey are most likely to be at the watering hole, is still the faculty that we are using. The lion could be said to be using the faculty in a simplistic manner while we are using it in a far more complex way. Okay, I can accept that. Still … despite the scientific findings & the technological marvels we have created, how does this faculty, when used properly, become limitless in its reach?
Reason can give us plausibility in our perceptual world. The lion has increased the probability of killing a prey animal by being near the watering hole at a certain time, but it is an increased probability not a truth: there is simply a higher plausibility of prey. Evolution has a high plausibility - I use my belief in this plausibility in my argument. There are myriad observations & experimental models to support this highly plausible theory. I step back from saying evolution is true; I stick with evolution is highly plausible. And I would add: Evolution is highly plausible "within our perceptual world." Same with the atomic theory or quantum mechanics - they are plausible within our perceptual world. Atomic bombs are very convincing.
When a person reaches the sophistication to philosophize, they have been nurtured, indoctrinated, trained, taught, practiced, & accepted by the societal measures used to gauge success academically. What constitutes correct reasoning & proper of language has been inured in us long before personal logic or philosophy of language concerns arise. We are primed to accept reason & put on a pedestal. It is very difficult to use the approved societal, scientific, or philosophical reasoning & language to knock reason off that pedestal.
As animals we sense; as animals we digest nourishment & expel waste; as animals we think to assist survival of the species. Somehow we've detached the latter ability from its roots. We are animals. With limited evolved abilities. We are in the present world situation partly because we deny our evolved limitations. We are a lion starving to death at the water hole because plausibility is not certainty.

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Gentlerwiserfree t1_it1xaca wrote

> Nurtured, taught, educated

> Trained, Indoctrinated

The mobile app won’t let me reply to your post in any decent way, but these things are opposites.

Opposites don’t always come in twos.

There are three prongs here.

  1. Basic observation -> basic assumptions/hypotheses about causality coming from just what that one individual can see with the naked eye, without building off of anyone else’s experiences.

  2. Schooling and indoctrination -> A set interpretation of the past imposed on individuals by society. Mistakes are enshrined as truth because they confirm the biases of some decision maker (that decision maker can be an individual leader, or can just as easily — more often — be a crowd/the majority).

  3. Actual education means ruthlessly questioning beliefs and refusing to accept confirmation bias. It means ruthlessly breaking down inherited packages into the smaller blocks that make them up, and questioning who put those blocks together into that package, and why, and whether that system is still functioning, etc.

So if you stop at 2, or if you accept this idea that 2 is “reason” — that 2 is the limit of what “reason” can mean — then of course, “reason” isn’t going to get you much further than 1.

But 2 isn’t reason.

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Major_Pause_7866 t1_it43blg wrote

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I suppose my point is man's abilities are evolved abilities - or they're not. If you dismiss injection of self-reflection by a higher power, what else can they be? We can only jump so high. Live so long, Think so far.

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TMax01 t1_it9imlf wrote

>man's abilities are evolved abilities - or they're not.

A false dichotomy.

>If you dismiss injection of self-reflection by a higher power, what else can they be?

The ability to dismiss false dichotomies, I suppose. Need they be more? Are you saying that because self-determination is not a magic power, it is therefore not real?

Please don't take those questions as merely dismissive rhetoric, I think they should be considered and answered. I entirely agree with you and empathize with your perspective, I sympathize with your premise. But you're ignoring the possibility that reason itself is an evolved ability, and I think I know why. There are three reasons, two of which I'll explain.

First, you rightfully believe that free will has to be a gift from God or else it doesn't exist. This is true, but it is also true that self-reflection doesn't require free will, just self-determination.

Second, you assume "reason" is logic. This is false, but it is also the assumption that modern and postmodern (and neopostmodern) philosophy (apart from theistic morality) has relied on (and been trapped by, it is a "tar pit") since the time of Socrates.

I had the same position you do, felt the same frustration, and was stuck on the same problems, years ago. Plus, I was even more desperate than you are to find answers, for personal reasons. And believe it or not, I managed to extricate myself from the tar pit by finding answers. I've been trying to help other people do the same ever since. Consider it plausible even if it isn't certain. What have you got to lose?

Thanks for your time. Hope it helps.

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Major_Pause_7866 t1_itaacbh wrote

Wonderful reply. Thank you. And you're right about the false dichotomy. And clever rebuttal.

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FillMyKraken69 t1_itdgbpz wrote

I believe self awareness is just a small part of the brain like a cog in a system and we aren’t a being or person but a small function in survival. And I believe I “die” each time I zone out. The part of the brain we exist in transfers information across the brain and we do not consciously exist until something stressful our mind cannot properly comprehend comes into play. And like a computer we can retrieve memories from our mind to help make choices and create scenarios. But ultimately it is all we can do before fading out. No matter how stressful something is, do it enough and u zone out. It is a”sad” reality but like the cat in the box, if u wait 100 years to accept the cat is dead, it won’t change the state of the cat. Feedback is appreciated, I’m just beginning my philosophical journey.

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TMax01 t1_itdueb4 wrote

>I believe self awareness is just a small part of the brain

Self-awareness isn't a part of the brain at all. But it is the most important property of our brains, regardless of what proportion of our neural processes related directly to conscious thoughts. Survival is a minuscule consideration, in comparison; even creatures without brains survive and apparently act with volition.

>And I believe I “die” each time I zone out.

Then you are using that word very differently than everyone else does. Your outlook seems bleak and cynical, which isn't unusual these days, but isn't as necessary as your postmodern analysis suggests.

>It is a”sad” reality but like the cat in the box, if u wait 100 years to accept the cat is dead, it won’t change the state of the cat.

I presume you are referring to Schrödinger's cat. That cat remains alive no matter how long you wait to open the box. But it doesn't die until you cause it to assume that state by opening the box; half the time, anyway.

> Feedback is appreciated, I’m just beginning my philosophical journey.

Start with this.

Thanks for your time. Hope it helps.

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FillMyKraken69 t1_itgr0lv wrote

Idk how to reply like that. But Part 1 I believe memory would be the most important part. And nonetheless our consciousness is just a physical part of the brain. Survival is still the foundation all philosophy comes from. We just seem to focus on the why and quality of parts.

Part 2 I’m trying to get to absolute root of why? In all actions. I suppose the necessity of my thoughts and conclusions hasn’t bin a concern of mine.

Part 3 The cat is still dead even if we do not know it is dead. The presumption of our awareness having any affect on the universe is backed by the same reason as magic

Part 4 Thank you for the recommendation and time. It is very appreciated

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TMax01 t1_itgwrzk wrote

>Idk how to reply like that.

While creating a reply comment, select the appropriate text in the comment you're replying to. Use the pop-up menu to choose "Quote". Or, just type a 'greater than sign' (>) and then type or paste the text you want to reply to.

>And nonetheless our consciousness is just a physical part of the brain.

I'll presume you meant 'emergent property' rather than "part", and ignore the attendant question of whether an intellectual abstraction qualifies as "physical". The issue then is whether consciousness is an integral aspect of the [human] brain or is an epiphenomena (an inconsequential side effect). Survival is not the foundation of philosophy, it is merely a prerequisite for philosophizing. The substance and topic of philosophy are all those aspect of existence beyond mere "survival".

>I’m trying to get to absolute root of why?

In POR this (both the question and the answer) is identified and described as the ineffability of being. The conundrum you face is familiar to every four year old and their parents: questions of "why" can only be answered by statements that might satisfy either party, but never actually resolve the issue (teleology) because that answer in turn can simply prompt another query as to 'why?'.The approach conventional science and religion uses is referred to in POR as "turtles all the way down".

>I suppose the necessity of my thoughts and conclusions hasn’t bin a concern of mine.

It really should be. And I think it actually is, or you would not be here trying to discuss philosophy. The necessity of your consciousness is the absolute root of "why".

>The cat is still dead even if we do not know it is dead.

You are simultaneously misrepresenting the truth of the gedanken and misunderstanding the philosophical implications of that truth. The cat is not dead until the superstate of being both alive and dead collapses to a finite state of either living or dead. Your assumption (which seems reasonable in reality but is physically incorrect in terms of quantum mechanics and Schrödinger's Cat,) that it is dead even if we do not know it yet, is inaccurate. Schrödinger's cat isn't dead until you open the box to find out whether it is alive or not.

>The presumption of our awareness having any affect on the universe is backed by the same reason as magic

Up until you start talking about that damned cat, meaning you are referring to quantum physics rather than biological organisms, sure. But metaphysical uncertainty is real even outside of the spooky weirdness of QM. It's just easier to be in denial about that until the empirical experiments and math of physics makes it undeniable, forcing you to confront it's reality. You say your awareness cannot have any effect on the universe, but that assumption is backed by the same reason as a baby who thinks that things stop existing when they can no longer be seen.

The resolution to all this requires an unconventional perspective, which POR provides. The effect of your consciousness only needs to have a minuscule impact on the universe in one very particular and specific case in order to have an effect on the universe. It does not have to be a general effect or affect, as in "magic", to be real. That one real and necessary absolute root of being, where your consciousness can change what happens in the physical universe, is self-determination. Since the conventional approach you are relying on for your thinking can only explain self-determination as "free will" or an illusion, your approach fails, because it is neither.

Thanks again for your time. Hope, it helps.

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FillMyKraken69 t1_ith2yl2 wrote

I’m still to new for this and like half of this flew over my head, I’ll return someday.

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TMax01 t1_it9gv0x wrote

>We are animals with evolved abilities like all creatures on this planet.

Here is where your reasoning starts to fail. (Although, if I'm being honest, it was actually earlier when you said you were wary of "reason", by which I presume you actually meant logic, but let's skip that issue for the moment.)

We are animals with evolved abilities unlike any other creature on this planet. This alone doesn't distinguish us. Every species of creature has some evolved abilities which are different from all other species: this is part and parcel of being a distinct species. But with humans it goes beyond that, because of the specific ability we evolved to have, which is demonstrably unique in result.

>Reason is an evolved ability that did not somehow leap past biological barriers & provide us with a god-like tool to unlock the mysteries of the universe.

Returning to that earlier point, then: reason is an evolved ability that leaps past biological barriers and provides is with a tool to unlock the mysteries of the universe. These mysteries become less mysterious therefor. Reason need not be "god-like", in fact it cannot be God-like, but overcoming biological (and other physical) barriers is exactly what it is for, and what it accomplishes. But (and this is the most important issue in all of philosophy, the key to unlocking all of the things about human behavior which are not merely biological abilities but the capacity to go beyond biological and physical barriers) reason is not logic. It is something more than that. It is, among other things, the ability to conceive of logic, and it must be greater than logic, it must transcend mathematics and deduction and even induction (or any other formal system) in order to recognize, discover, invent, or develop formal systems like logic, which you have been taught to identify and describe as reason. That, the limitations of logic, is what you are raling against, what you are wary of, and you are using reasoning to do so.

>The lion could be said to be using the faculty in a simplistic manner while we are using it in a far more complex way.

The lion uses no reason nor logic. The lion is logic, with no reason. It's genes are logic, the physics of the nucleotides and the proteins they "encode" is logic, the entire universe is logic, limited by mathematical laws although we know not how. But lions (nor whales, elephants, dogs, birds, apes, or fungi) have no consciousness, they do not have reasoning, they are unaware of the existence of biology or logic. They have no reason to be, they engage in no reasoning, and they are incapable of deciding how they should behave, they merely exist and do whatever their biochemistry causes them to do. Humans really are different. You can say that reason is an illusion, that consciousness is merely an unsolved engineering problem or a gift from god or a ground state of the universe, what you're really doing is denying the evidence. Humans are different. We aren't just a different kind of life, we are a different kind of matter, even though our biological existence is the same as any other life form and our atoms are the same as any other object. Our consciousness isn't a fiction, our language is not a logical code, and our morality is not simply social norms.

>I step back from saying evolution is true; I stick with evolution is highly plausible

You remind me of Richard Dawkins, stepping back from saying God isn't true, and sticking with God is merely implausible. Socrates' showed that accepting uncertainty is a necessary aspect of reasoning. Descartes showed that doubt is a fundamental premise of consciousness. But sooner or later we have to man up and accept the fact that being unsure if humans are moral creatures (and that God does not exist!) is a disastrous and unproductive pretense.

>as animals we think to assist survival of the species.

Animals don't do that, though. If they thought at all (they do not, though the neurological impulses in their brain is only teleologically, not physically, different from the neural impulses which are our thoughts) they would only consider, care about, or assist their own survival, and seek to be the definition of the species rather than merely a single creature doomed to die. Evolution is undeniable, the mechanism of natural selection is so absolutely true and unavoidable that even God, if It existed, could not prevent it from occurring. But knowing evolution is true (beyond the notion of causation itself, a mere fiction in comparison) does not mean that what some person or expert (or ALL people and experts, if we can imagine such a universal consensus) claims the implications of evolution are is likewise true.

>We are animals. With limited evolved abilities.

We have that one evolved ability which has no limit. We can imagine things that aren't real, and consider whether they should be real, and devise methods to make them real. Just because we are still animals doesn't mean we are still just animals. Consciousness isn't just sense perception with a larger neural network, it is a very specific and particular (and also holistic) perception (to be explicit and give it a name, it is self-determination and theory of mind) that isn't limited to senses (or sense) with a larger neural network. 😉

>We are in the present world situation partly because we deny our evolved limitations.

We are in the present world situation entirely because we have the ability to ignore our evolved limitations. The real problem is that we deny that, as you are doing. If we were just animals like any other, we wouldn't be in this mess. And if we accept the moral responsibility of reason, instead of trying to avoid it by confusing reason with "logic", we can work our way out of this mess, and any other situation we might find ourselves in.

> We are a lion starving to death at the water hole because plausibility is not certainty.

What is the water, in your metaphor?

We are apes trapped in a tar pit, unable to figure a way out because plausibility is as close to certainty as anything beyond cogito ergo sum ever gets. We cannot overcome metaphysical uncertainty (whether there is anything beyond our perceptions) and we cannot overcome epistemic uncertainty (whether there is anything to our perceptions) and we need to stop using that as an excuse for remaining stuck in this damned tar pit. 🤓

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