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XiphosAletheria t1_j03chjs wrote

This article runs into several of the issues that plague Rand in general.

First, it rails against the option of living as a parasite. But parasitism is a valid evolutionary strategy, and there's no rational reason any given human being should avoid choosing it. Indeed, it makes much more sense for an average person to prefer a system that allows them to engage in a certain amount of "parasitism" than it does for them to support a system where they are left at the mercy of the handful of people at one end of the IQ bell curve.

Second, it treats "individual thought" as the primary method of man's survival rather than the much better candidate of "social conditioning". You may have to think hard about how to eat and what to eat if you are trapped alone on a desert island, but in real life most people are guided into jobs that earn them money they can go to spend at the supermarket, where the poisonous berries have already been screened out.

Third, it presupposes that there is an objective psychological thing called a "human being" with a fixed nature. But people are wildly varied and, well, not as collective as Rand ironically assumes. So you get statements such as "you can't find happiness in procrastination, promiscuity, or pot", which is laughable given how many people find real enjoyment in those things.

Basically, while Rand is very interesting in that she lays out her premises very clearly and straightforwardly, in a way that few other philosophers dare to do, she ends up falling prey to the fact that she is writing in reaction to her communist upbringing, and so therefore ends up basically accepting a communist framework. She becomes a mirror image of Marx, agreeing that society is defined by a class struggle, only siding with the other class. But the Marxist framework is inherently flawed and reductive, and cannot be saved merely by flipping it.

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DirtyOldPanties OP t1_j03efes wrote

> So you get statements such as "you can't find happiness in procrastination, promiscuity, or pot", which is laughable given how many people find real enjoyment in those things.

Finding enjoyment in those things is not the same as finding happiness and I doubt the author meant you could not find joy or pleasure in those things.

> First, it rails against the option of living as a parasite. But parasitism is a valid evolutionary strategy,

Why does "evolutionary strategy" matter if the fundamental question is how to live one's life? Is parasitism a valid strategy to pursue one's own happiness or self-esteem? I think the article demonstrates quite clearly otherwise. I liked the example of a thief who resents transactions as a nuisance who is in discord with their emotions and what they desire.

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XiphosAletheria t1_j03o9lk wrote

>Finding enjoyment in those things is not the same as finding happiness and I doubt the author meant you could not find joy or pleasure in those things.

Ah, the author had some mystical idea of "happiness" in mind, then, which they have no doubt defined as excluding those things they think ought not to produce it.

>Why does "evolutionary strategy" matter if the fundamental question is how to live one's life? Is parasitism a valid strategy to pursue one's own happiness or self-esteem?

Sure? I mean, you only really get three basic roles to choose from - predator, prey, or parasite. The "productive" types working ordinary jobs are your prey. The rich types who inherit their wealth initially and grow it by gaming the system or exploiting others rather than producing anything themselves are your parasites. And those who murder and rob as they see fit are the predators.

Of course, the metaphor falls apart very quickly if you try to work with it, because the use of the term "parasite" wasn't exactly intellectually honest in the first place. It was just an emotionally loaded term meant to forestall debate.

>I think the article demonstrates quite clearly otherwise. I liked the example of a thief who resents transactions as a nuisance who is in discord with their emotions and what they desire.

You mean the literal straw man, the person who doesn't exist whose fictional emotions you can pretend to understand?

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DirtyOldPanties OP t1_j03xu5e wrote

> You mean the literal straw man, the person who doesn't exist whose fictional emotions you can pretend to understand?

I don't think it's a strawman when arguments such as these depend on introspection. It's not as though people don't understand (in an emotional sense, not a philosophical one or scientific one) what emotions are or have never felt then.

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iiioiia t1_j07bzfb wrote

> Ah, the author had some mystical idea of "happiness" in mind, then, which they have no doubt defined as excluding those things they think ought not to produce it.

Are you not kind of doing the same here, assuming that the author's take is necessarily wrong and yours is not?

>> Why does "evolutionary strategy" matter if the fundamental question is how to live one's life? Is parasitism a valid strategy to pursue one's own happiness or self-esteem?

> Sure?

What if it isn't actually though? Like, it may "work" (you do not literally die), but whether parasitism is optimal for the overall system or even yourself as an individual (if you consider things like systems theory, emergence, consciousness, etc) seems rather complicated.

> I mean, you only really get three basic roles to choose from - predator, prey, or parasite.

What about neutrality (which could be a blend of these, or something else)?

> Of course, the metaphor falls apart very quickly if you try to work with it, because the use of the term "parasite" wasn't exactly intellectually honest in the first place. It was just an emotionally loaded term meant to forestall debate.

a) That isn't the only reason it falls apart.

b) How do you know that "the term "parasite" wasn't exactly intellectually honest in the first place. It was just an emotionally loaded term meant to forestall debate", and that the phenomenon you mentioned isn't affecting you in your evaluation?

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November87 t1_j07e3k2 wrote

Enjoyment and happiness can absolutely be the same, just as much as they can be different.

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Vainti t1_j05hsvc wrote

Stopped reading after the first use of parasite. Any philosophy which dehumanizes the disabled (and anyone else not productive under capitalism) doesn’t have much productive to say about morality. You look like a monster when you describe everyone from lovable puppies to children dying of cancer as parasites. There’s more to morality than greed.

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DirtyOldPanties OP t1_j05n6sf wrote

I think you're projecting a bit if you associate the word parasite with the disabled or children dying of cancer.

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Vainti t1_j05vksh wrote

The article describes a dichotomy between those who are productive and parasites. If you think this author believes children with cancer and the disabled are productive, I have no idea how you came to that conclusion since the article seemed to only describe productivity in terms of being paid or maintaining self sufficiency. Why do you think this author would say a kid with a mortal case of cancer isn’t a parasite?

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DirtyOldPanties OP t1_j05wowl wrote

I think the distinction is one of choice and the capacity to support oneself. If a person is capable of supporting themselves they'd have a moral responsibility to do so.

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Vainti t1_j06dyp6 wrote

I don’t believe you can square the use of parasite with a concern for that entity’s agency. It’s like trying to trust a person who says, “I don’t hate Jews because of their genetics; I call them rats because of the choices they’ve made.” Even if I grant that you don’t condemn people for being unproductive through no fault of their own, this parasite rhetoric still evokes imagery of hate toward desperate victims (like drug addicts and the mentally ill). It’s not like the people you’re calling parasites are benefiting from their behavior. They need rehabilitation and community more than condemnation.

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[deleted] t1_j04mcct wrote

Yeah I mean human behavior, motives, and their placement in a society are far more complicated and nuanced. No person is an absolute parasite or absolutely productive.

I mean by this standard all retired old people are useless parasites.

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DirtyOldPanties OP t1_j04ppme wrote

> Yeah I mean human behavior, motives, and their placement in a society are far more complicated and nuanced. No person is an absolute parasite or absolutely productive.

I agree most people do live in contradiction to some degree but I don't know why there would be some arbitrary absolute that declares "No person is an absolute parasite or absolutely productive."

> I mean by this standard all retired old people are useless parasites.

I very much disagree. I think most retired old people live off their past productive effort (for the most part).

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[deleted] t1_j04vexb wrote

Yes there are some, that maybe an absolute case, but again are products of environment and genetics. In general most everyone is not an absolute.

Again in what country. In a tribal society you would get taken care of. If you have no pension or retirement then you don't have much to live off of. Social security is not enough. But many American don't have a retirement and work their lives away. A good example would be a migrant worker that is illegal, but will never receive Social Security, even though they work and produce.

You are thinking in another default of cultural assumptions etc.

Also being both isn't necessarily a contradiction.

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AConcernedCoder t1_j0nqlkn wrote

I agree with what looks like the general consensus here that the use of "parasite" is at best uncharitable.

And it goes against any view which suggests that people generally desire to live well and to thrive at some fundamental level. In my opinion, thriving can require work, and yes it's true that hard work can help us to be happy, but that's where the industrialized protestant work ethic seems to want us to stop to suit capitalism's interests. In reality, when work starts to look like slavery, there is a point where thriving begins to end, and sometimes workers even die. Thriving may not always look like productivity, nor is it always a constant. In fact I'd go so far as to say that so-called "parasites" don't fail to thrive because they don't desire to thrive, but because they are denied the opportunity to do so thanks to an antiquated ideology which deliberately limits their capacity to thrive and seeks to use said "parasites" as a motivator to push everyone else to work harder.

But, to be a little more business-minded and less emotive, this still doesn't make a lot of sense when you consider that innovation, creative works, etc, as a driving force that pushes a healthy economy beyond mere industry, relies heavily on people who sacrifice their time for little to no pay, and so to motivate these people to stop what they're doing and to work harder has got to be one of the most nonsensical anti-capitalist ideas that capitalism promotes.

Meanwhile, the priveleged few, infants really, have the red carpet rolled out for them to receive billions to run fraudulent pyramid schemes, revealing that it isn't very much about hard work at all. Our sacred system is not only broken, it's gangrenous and needs massive amputations. Is there any point where we may correctly conclude that we need something better, or are we effectively locked into going down with the ship by our sacred dogma?

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