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SirMichaelDonovan t1_j0z8r59 wrote

Excellent article, thank you, I needed something to ponder for the day.

I don't think it's fair to discuss anarchism as though it's an achievable state and this article does a really good job of laying out the challenges of that approach.

I see anarchism as being an ideal standard of living. I don't think we'll ever get to that standard but I think it's important to hold up that image of a perfect world and to ask ourselves, "What can we do in the here-and-now that will get us closer to this?"

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theaselliott t1_j0zbvkv wrote

Anarchists usually perceive anarchy as a process. Something that's unattainable but should always be strived for. Malatesta explains this well if I remember correctly.

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Containedmultitudes t1_j0zpmuj wrote

I’m a big fan of Chomsky’s definition. My poor attempt to paraphrase: authority is not self justifying, and authoritarian structures that can not justify their existence should be dismantled. Could probably add what authority deserves to exist should be controlled through democratic processes.

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Ikhlas37 t1_j0zhv2d wrote

Any share what the ultimate anarchic society (?) Would look like?

All i think of when i here anarchist is burning the establishment down and sticking it to the man which I'm assuming is only a small part of it? (Or a completely different thing under the same umbrella)

Edit: ah good old Reddit, where someone asks a genuine question to learn more and gets downvoted for not already knowing lol

Please don't mistake this edit as a plea for upvotes. Please continue to downvote or don't. Is that anarchy? The freedom of choice. ✊

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Transocialist t1_j0zwunl wrote

Anarchism as a political philosophy strives for non-hierarchical cooperation. It's hard to say what an "end-stage" anarchist society would look like - anarchism focuses more on how people should go about organizing than the results of the organization.

I tend to imagine society organized across geographies by trade and industrial unions and in localities by consensus-driven democracy with local councils handling the day to day administrative tasks. The economy would primarily function almost as a gift economy, possibly with some markets for luxury goods.

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iDrGonzo t1_j103ngb wrote

I think you can get a good idea of the philosophy behind post modern anarchism from Ursula K LeGuin's-The Dispossessed and The Left Hand of Darkness.

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procrastinato_r t1_j119u00 wrote

Back in the 1970's I was thinking of doing a PhD with the title "The concept of justice in anarchist political theory" then I read The Dispossessed and realised anything I was going to write would not come close to what she achieved. So she saved 3 years of my life.

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glum_plum t1_j11133a wrote

I want to add another great work of fiction portraying ararchic ways of life is A Country of Ghosts by Margaret Killjoy. Oh and Walkaway by Cory Doctorow.

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SnapcasterWizard t1_j10cjvo wrote

Socialism isnt anarchism. In neither is anarchy as a system really explored.

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_CMDR_ t1_j10ywvb wrote

Anarcho socialism is a thing.

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dfeeney95 t1_j111xdn wrote

So my idea of anarchy is making a choice for your personal situation based on your own morals regardless of the law. When I drive home from work today there are some stretches of the interstate that normally aren’t too busy, but the speed limit is 70mph I can safely and comfortably go 80mph so when I can I do go 80mph. My view of anarchism doesn’t mean looting and burning shit. Societies since the beginning of time have used natural law before a “state” existed do no harm to others and do no harm to the earth. MLK had a really good quote in his “letter from Birmingham jail” that to me is an anarchistic ideology “One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws”

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glum_plum t1_j111aun wrote

It just seems like if you did read the posted piece, you should read it again. It might help clear up your questions.

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Desmond_FanClub t1_j0zqe68 wrote

It would look like everyone singing kumbaya and sharing everything. There will be no prisons or strong state enforcement of law because, in anarchy-world, everyone will just be good and serial killers just need to have free food. All crime is due to poverty!

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RedditExecutiveAdmin t1_j0ziqjn wrote

Isn't the lack of any modern anarchistic society an indicator it doesn't work?

Even this blog article really can't wrangle with the fact that you need some form of law to deal with criminal behavior

edit: I stand corrected that there does appear to be some "anarchist" societies, but many have exceptions here or there. It still appears that anarchism is more of a beginning than an end. The evolution of law is too key of an aspect of human society to let it be essentially decentralized.

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rottentomatopi t1_j0zobfl wrote

No. Because to achieve an anarchistic society would require overcoming the power structures that have been in place for a really really long time. Doesn’t mean it’s impossible, just not probable in our lifetime, and maybe not in our children’s lifetime either. But what matters isn’t immediate effect, what matters is contributing to that future when it is possible.

Abolition, workers rights, women’s rights are all examples of movements that began with anarchist thought. They all involved questioning of a structural problem in society and the subsequent attempt to dismantle it. It takes time.

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RedditExecutiveAdmin t1_j0zqfnt wrote

fair enough, i can respect that any anarchist society would need to overcome the existing power structures.

i do slightly disagree with the idea that abolition or civil rights "began with anarchist thought", but perhaps my definition of anarchism is different than this context. If questioning authority makes you an anarchist then sure, but then how can a stateless society enforce civil rights without state institutions?

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Desmond_FanClub t1_j0zq1gv wrote

Do we consider “the fundamental social-psychological nature of the human mind” to be one of these “power structures?”

Because I agree, it will take a long time to overcome that. Like, we’d need to evolve into a different species before an anarchist social regime could ever hope to be stable and healthy

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Transocialist t1_j0zx85v wrote

What parts of the "social-psychological nature of the human mind" prevent which aspects of anarchist organizing?

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Desmond_FanClub t1_j0zxbvm wrote

The part that makes me devious AF and wanna vandalize your shit

You gonna call the anarchy cops?

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Transocialist t1_j10074v wrote

I would defend my stuff myself or get my neighbors to help me or call the local defense council, sure. I mean, what stops you from doing that now? I see shit get vandalized every day and cops don't seem to do anything about it.

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VitriolicViolet t1_j15jnnk wrote

whats to stop the local defence council from simply taking over and becoming a defacto government?

never seen any actual mechanism to prevent strongmen/warlords or the inevitable return of some form of hierarchical state, just some nebulous BS about how the 'people' would stop it.

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Transocialist t1_j15pcv7 wrote

There's two parts to this:

  1. How do you prevent the people with arms in your community from banding together and taking over? Well, I'd imagine you'd spread defensive readiness across different sectors of your community, embedded within the populace. You would complement seasoned volunteers and appointed or elected leaders, probably with some measure of training for all adults. Ideally you would rotate your soldiers across communities too.

  2. How does a society prevent a different society from gathering enough strength to conquer them? I don't know, that's an open question. Once any society has figured this out we can talk.

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Desmond_FanClub t1_j100fpt wrote

I’ll get an even BIGGER group of people to overwhelm the “local defense council” (whatever such a thing would actually, specifically look like in our modern context which anarchists never explain)

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BaldrClayton t1_j103gqe wrote

Well then I'll put a trap and hide it very well so you wouldn't be able to detect it and fall into it 100% if you ever try to steal my stuff. And it would not matter how many people you'd bring because I'd just put as many traps +1

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Desmond_FanClub t1_j104jvj wrote

Jokes on you, the local trap council has been paid off (by me) and all your traps are disabled

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BaldrClayton t1_j1055i2 wrote

AHA ! money doesn't exist in Anarchy so you lose ! (also my dad is in the trap council)

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Transocialist t1_j104bez wrote

The local defense council would be a group of people elected or appointed by the community who are responsible for training, arming and organizing members in the community. How specific are you asking? Like what level of detail would convince you?

What stops you from doing that in hierarchical societies? I mean, powerful people in our society use their wealth and power to inflict terrible pain and misery on the poor. So, what's stopping them?

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SnapcasterWizard t1_j10crf4 wrote

Lol so you would call the local government in a system without authority???

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Transocialist t1_j10jctb wrote

I would call the people who have volunteered to defend the community. Anarchist societies would still have institutions and organizations - but they should be organized as least-hierarchically as possible, built by the community democratically.

Anarchism is a set of ideals and organizational principles, not some utopian end goal.

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silveroranges t1_j1000n4 wrote

damn, that would be a good band name. Anarchy Cops. In fact, I'm writing that down.

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Desmond_FanClub t1_j10073m wrote

I’ll wait until you get big and then sue you for stealing the name

Wait, can I even do that in anarchy world?

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Fuduzan t1_j10xbhy wrote

>sue you for stealing the name
>
>Wait, can I even do that in anarchy world?

Of course you can! What're they gonna to, sue you?

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theaselliott t1_j0zk3qw wrote

Lack? Bro the world if full of anarchist experiments that have been going on for years. Just look it up.

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Desmond_FanClub t1_j0zq6fi wrote

And every single one exists only with the blessing of non-anarchist societies.

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RedditExecutiveAdmin t1_j0zkgcj wrote

feel free to cite one but they obviously aren't working lol

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Containedmultitudes t1_j0zqhxu wrote

Hunter gatherer societies are in many ways anarchic and were the basis of human civilization for most of our existence. For a modern example the kibbutzim of Israel are a kind of anarchic society. There are tons of others as well. As a general matter, though, the fact that an ideology invites harsh repression doesn’t mean that ideology can’t work. Democracy didn’t exist for thousands of years and attempted democratic communities were brutally destroyed, but once democracy was able to overcome that history of oppression better societies were created.

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RedditExecutiveAdmin t1_j103sf8 wrote

The Kibbutz is a very interesting read, but i'd agree it's only "kind of" anarchistic. As for the rest, I actually got to meet some EZLN members on a trip down to southern Mexico one time, got a shirt from them of Subcomandante Marcos

I think at the end of the day they're not purely anarchist though. And I'd argue hunter gatherers were not anarchist by choice. Hunter gatherers were not saying "ah, we could all form a democracy right now but things are working fine lets keep it this way"--it's just how it worked. Modern anarchists seek to reject state institutions. You cannot reject what is not there, and hunter gatherers were by that definition not really anarchist.

I also respectfully think some of these arguments miss the point that anarchy has had its chance. I really am trying to see how anarchy may exist in the future given some serious modifications in human behavior. But as you mention, democracy didn't exist for thousands of years and was even brutally suppressed. But anarchy has existed for thousands of years. Hasn't anarchy been "trying to work", or overcome the inception of other younger systems, for the entirety of life on earth? It seems misplaced to think there is a distant future where anarchy works when it's been the tried method for most of human history. How has anarchy not already had a chance to work? I'm open to a suggestion that it hasn't had a chance yet, but I personally can't come up with reasons to say it like that. It may be still trying but I think it's a stretch of reason to say anarchism hasn't already had a chance.

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DiogenesCane t1_j104qoo wrote

I agree. My view is that Anarchism provides two things to those who understand it. The first is what you’ve said, ideals of utopian societies. The second is critical thought of power structures. Anarchism allows the individual to deconstruct any power structure in order to better understand and evaluate it. Without viewing the world in this way, titles and power and hierarchies are often misevaluated as being forces for good.

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Asatas t1_j0znw9r wrote

One easy thing to do is to stop focusing on superfluous things, especially status symbols. Status signalling keeps the social hierarchy intact.

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pf30146788e t1_j10u961 wrote

You should read The Dispossessed if you haven’t. One of my favorite novels of all time, and it’s got anarchism.

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rossimus t1_j0zojug wrote

>I see anarchism as being an ideal standard of living. I don't think we'll ever get to that standard

Seeing how people reacted to a completely manageable crisis like COVID selfishly and counterproductively proved to me without a reasonable doubt that people as a group cannot be trusted to act rationally without guardrails or hierarchical structure.

A person is smart, rational. People are dumb panicky animals. You or I might be able to live capably in an anarchical society, but the vast majority could not, and there would always be some minority of people who would impose their own hierarchy upon their immediate area, with coercion or charisma, and then BOOM, you have warlords and cults. And now you and your neighbors need to organize a way to protect yourselves from those warlords and cults. BOOM, now you have an organized society that demands specialization and organization, and now you aren't anarchical so what was the point of all that in the first place.

Anarchism, even in its most optimistic and ideal form is inferior to organized society in every way save for an individual's desire to be unconstrained. Life is better with infrastructure and logistics. Paved roads, grocery stores, supply chains, libraries, electricity, bridges, transportation, etc are awesome and none of those would exist without large scale organization and regulation.

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Meta_Digital t1_j0zuocz wrote

> Seeing how people reacted to a completely manageable crisis like COVID selfishly and counterproductively proved to me without a reasonable doubt that people as a group cannot be trusted to act rationally without guardrails or hierarchical structure.

Odd to think that because people are incapable of self-governing that they must be capable of governing others. It seems like one should have the opposite reaction.

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XiphosAletheria t1_j10pmjq wrote

Why is it odd? Half of any group of a respresentative cross-section of humanity is going to be stupid. And to the extent that other traits follow a similar normal distribution, half will be lazy, emotionally unaware, criminally inclined, etc. It is precisely because people in general are not very good at self-governing that we need heirarchal systems that put those handful who are good at governing in charge. It would be odder to believe in heirarchal systems and to believe that everyone was equally good at self-governing.

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Meta_Digital t1_j10sx4q wrote

I feel like the article responds to this, but who are these people that are adapt at governing others and what system actually puts them in places of power? Looking at the world around me today, I see incompetence at the top just as much or more than at the bottom.

Also, not everyone has to be good at self-governing, but if you put one person in charge of everyone else, they certainly have to be good at it due to the complexity and the consequences. The argument that a single person should be in charge of an organization seems like the belief that the best brain cell should run the entire human body. Chomsky describes the consequences of this ideology as "institutional stupidity".

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XiphosAletheria t1_j10w9vr wrote

Ideally, of course, you'll have some sort of meritocracy, but any system that concentrates authority will work better than one that doesn't. And of course it won't be one person ruling really. You'll have the deep state, the bureaucracy full of thousands of civil servants, all screened through the need to get degrees and certifications, who do the heavy lifting.

And you're right! Things can go very wrong if the people at the top suck. Sure, of course. But a system where you have someone in charge coordinating a response to complex problems as they arise is still better than one where you have no one in charge hence no coordinated responses. The former may sometimes fail, even fail spectacularly, but at least it can sometimes succeed. The later can only fail, always and forever, until someone takes charge.

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Meta_Digital t1_j10xjld wrote

If anarchy is a fantasy, then meritocracy is a form of insanity. There has yet to be a good definition of merit, and worse, there's hardly ever been an attempt at one. Merit gets defined by the people at the top of the system in order to preserve their position and elevate those who help them preserve their position. And so, without fail, every meritocracy is a scam, and the result is that those with something approaching a more objective definition of merit are not elevated. We're not even at the point where we can even conceive of an objective definition of merit.

For instance, merit under capitalism is profit maximization. So those elevated to the top of society are the ones who... well by and large started at the top. Even if they didn't, it turns out that you can maximize profits best by being parasitic on society and the natural environment, and so those in the greatest position of power under capitalism are also those most responsible for the world's greatest problems. This is a pretty typical result in historical attempts at a kind of meritocracy.

A society focused on the worth and autonomy of an individual person wouldn't discriminate for or against them based on merit. Ultimately, merit is just reducing a person down to the instrumental use they have for someone else's ambitions.

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XiphosAletheria t1_j11c4pv wrote

Merit is simply effectiveness at whatever task you are doing. A janitor who is on the ball and keeps everything spic and span is a meritorious janitor. A doctor who repeatedly gets the best medical outcomes for his patients is a meritorious doctor. A CEO who maximizes profit and makes his company millions is a meritorious CEO. Some qualities tend to make people more meritorious across a wide variety of tasks - being conscientious, hard working, intelligent, etc., especially in combination. And I don't think it is particularly insane to want doctors who are good at doctoring, or politicians who are good at politics, or chefs who are good at cooking. It is probably impossible to have a pure meritocracy, given our tribal tendencies, but some systems are more meritocratic than others, and we should prefer those.

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Meta_Digital t1_j11djdc wrote

Okay, and I generally agree with this, but the issue seems to emerge when we're talking about organizing a society in a way that those with "merit" have undue power over those who supposedly don't.

Does Elon Musk have more merit than his Tesla or Twitter employees?

Does Joe Biden or Donald Trump have more merit than most of the US?

What even are the merits of Exxon? The Federal Reserve? The World Bank? The CIA? NATO? Do they have justification for the immense power they have over so many people's lives?

It's simple when we're talking about simple roles like a doctor or a janitor, but it gets far more complicated when we structure entire governments and massive national and transnational organizations around vague ideas of "merit". Can we even justify the existence of many of these organizations at all? What do we even mean by "merit" with reference to them?

Most of the discussion surrounding the failures of these organizations concerns the idea that the "wrong" people are at the top of them. If only Trump were president, then X would happen. If only Biden were president, then Y would happen. Yet the same system elevates both equally. Perhaps the fact that the wrong people keep getting into power comes down to the system simply working as it's supposed to work and that the ideas that went into the system are what's at fault. This would be the anarchist critique.

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XiphosAletheria t1_j12npuo wrote

I think the problems you are talking about are less system specific and more a matter of scale. We evolved to live in tribes of 150 or so people, and instead live in nations of millions, or in many cases, tens of millions or hundreds of millions. And at that scale any sociopolitical system is going to suffer from terrible distortions and breakdowns. The issue with Biden and Trump isn't that one is the right person and the other is wrong. It's that one is right for millions of people and wrong for millions more, and so is the other. And there are millions more for whom they are both wrong.

Likewise, people like Musk benefit from the fact that, at high enough scales, you can add a small amount of value to a large amount of things to make an awful lot of money. And money itself in large enough amounts can be used to generate more money simply by manipulating the system rather than through generating productive value.

But no system you design is going to avoid those sorts of problems at our current scale. Any system complex enough to handle things will also provide opportunities that those running it can exploit. And the very scale means you do need someone running things, because the alternative is anarchy in the sense it's detractors mean, violent chaos leading to endless warfare.

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rossimus t1_j0zvvou wrote

That's why we've moved away from systems of government where a person rules, and into systems of government where institutions and laws rule, and the people running those institutions cycle through.

This is precisely and deliberately because people paradoxically need to be governed to some degree but also cannot reliably self-govern without mucking it all up.

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Meta_Digital t1_j0zwyql wrote

And yet wealth and power remain extremely concentrated - more so than in any point in history. The institutions that rule also concentrate power at the very top - whether it's the totalitarian power of the business owners, the plutocratic power of a board of directors, the dictatorial power of some "elected" leaders like the US president, or the kleptocratic power of our democratic "representatives" who overwhelmingly belong to the owning class.

Systems of governance create the conditions which consolidate wealth and power in some hands, and strip wealth and power from others. An anarchist society is not one without structures of governance, but one which radically distributes wealth and power to the individual by critiquing and eliminating unjustified forms of dominance.

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VitriolicViolet t1_j15laix wrote

>Systems of governance create the conditions which consolidate wealth and power in some hands, and strip wealth and power from others. An anarchist society is not one without structures of governance, but one which radically distributes wealth and power to the individual by critiquing and eliminating unjustified forms of dominance.

in what possible way?

how does anarchy prevent or even limit this? if you have no state at all then all it takes is a charismatic individual with resources to slowly take over, if you do have some form of state then all it takes is an individual with enough resources to co-opt whatever 'state' or institution/s.

again anarchy and libertarianism rely on fantasy versions of human behavior, where people will magically not submit to rule by others despite all of human history disagreeing (pre-agricultural humanity is utterly irrelevant, its like saying we should look to chimps for advice on structuring society).

if the whole point is to just try and never give up then no system is any better or worse than any other, literally all of them have utopian visions for someone.

personally im on the point that short of annihilating the concept of property its not possible to avoid those who have the most resources using said resources to control others (the wealthy have dismantled literally every system ever implemented, just look at what people define 'capitalism' to be vs what it actually is)

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rossimus t1_j0zy0y6 wrote

>And yet wealth and power remain extremely concentrated - more so than in any point in history.

Wealth and power were far more concentrated when the world was ruled by absolute monarchs, emperors, and warlords. It's actually far more dispersed now than for most of human history. It's still very concentrated, but it's much better now than it used to be.

>An anarchist society is not one without structures of governance, but one which radically distributes wealth and power to the individual by critiquing and eliminating unjustified forms of dominance.

Until someone who wanted power seizes it and imposes their will. Power loves a vacuum, and an anarchist society would invite far greater concentrations of wealth and power because any regulatory institutions or guardrails would be gone. Power would just go to whoever was most willing to seize it by whatever means. You can't have both a government and a lack of hierarchy; who enforces the rules, if there are any?

You can't "eliminate unjustified forms of dominance" and also have no hierarchical system to enforce it. What's stopping me from gathering a handful of droogs and coming over to your house and taking your stuff? If I didn't have the stuff you have, why wouldn't I do this if it meant that my own family/community would love more comfortably and securely?

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Meta_Digital t1_j1000b7 wrote

> Wealth and power were far more concentrated when the world was ruled by absolute monarchs, emperors, and warlords.

They would look on today's billionaires with an envy the rest of us couldn't imagine. Today's wealthy and powerful are like gods compared to history's tyrants.

> You can't "eliminate unjustified forms of dominance" and also have no hierarchical system to enforce it.

Ultimately, the argument is about what is and is not a justified hierarchy. In this way, anarchism isn't unique from other forms of critique of power. What anarchism is, instead, is a focus on dominance in its political form. Environmentalism, feminism, race theory, Marxism, and other forms of critiques on the justification of hierarchy exist. It's a simplistic interpretation to take these as arguments for absolutely no power dynamics. That's impossible. What they are, instead, are the shadows cast by those power dynamics. They raise questions worth answering, and in answering them, we can create a more ethical world.

Anarchy in its most extreme theoretical form isn't possible. Neither is good, truth, objectivity, etc. Ultimately, ideals are directions we move toward more than they are destinations. To abandon projects just because their most Platonic form isn't achievable in material reality is really just to abandon any meaning or purpose and fall into nihilism and despair.

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rossimus t1_j102bih wrote

>They would look on today's billionaires with an envy the rest of us couldn't imagine. Today's wealthy and powerful are like gods compared to history's tyrants.

By this logic, the wealthiest medieval emperor of all time would look on at a lower middle class American with intense envy; indoor plumbing, electricity, central air and heating year round, high quality food always available nearby, a combustion engine vehicle capable of speeds far in excess of any horse or carriage; but the distance between that emperor and the peasants of the day vs a modern billionaire and a middle class person, outside of the dollar amount of wealth, isn't nearly as great. Regular people have access to basically all the same comforts as a billionaire, it's just that the billionaire has more of those things and nicer versions.

>Anarchy in its most extreme theoretical form isn't possible.

Exactly. It's a fun thought experiment, but is equally as implausible in real life as it would be undesirable.

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Meta_Digital t1_j103oh1 wrote

From a creature comfort standpoint, yes I think there would be some envy. From a standpoint of individual autonomy and leisure time, though, they would overwhelmingly consider working people to be slaves and not want to be us.

Plato would consider our souls too corrupted for geometry or philosophy. Roman law wouldn't consider us freemen. Even medieval serfs had more leisure time and access to more public spaces and common land.

It's not as simple as "things are better now". Some things, like comforts and the forms of escapism have improved, but other things are much worse. We don't really have privacy anymore. Our personal property has been replaced with the private property of those we are made dependent on. We have little to no public space or natural environment. It's more polluted. Our existential threats are worse than ever before.

I think it would be very hard to make the case that a historical tyrant would look at the average retail or office worker with any degree of envy.

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rossimus t1_j107pjx wrote

>I think it would be very hard to make the case that a historical tyrant would look at the average retail or office worker with any degree of envy.

I would rather work 8 hours a day in retail and enjoy all the trappings of modern life than spend every hour of every day managing a realm while shitting in cold holes, drinking water filled with parasites, watching my children die young with alarming regularity, face a constant threat of assassination and power play resulting from primitive succession systems, confront the cold and dark of winter in a visceral even from within a gold studded palace, endure disease and injury without any real form of medicine, etc. Even the relatively modern history of 18th century Britain, from an aristocratic point of view, sounds boring AF from the literature describing it at the time.

But I get it. We are all subject to envy in some way; for example you envy the rich and powerful for their material comforts to such a degree that you aren't even a little satisfied with all the incredible things you do have, simply on the basis that a handful of people have more of it than you. Such relative comparisons would not be absent in an anarchist society, they would just follow different parameters. Someone will always have more than you.

The real question is, right now, would you be willing to give up everything you currently have to be more equal with someone who has much less than you? Would you accept living at the same standards as the poorest humans in the slums of Cairo or New Delhi in the name of egalitarianism?

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Meta_Digital t1_j108tas wrote

I think you're presenting a false dichotomy here. Be unequal and wealthy or equal and poor.

In our extremely stratified and wasteful society, I think it is entirely reasonable to be equal without being poor. The poverty inflicted on the masses to keep them in waged labor is artificial, and many of the "luxuries" are just distractions that are bad for us (like Reddit itself).

Also, this assumes that the current structure can survive indefinitely. I do not see any reason to see that it can. I would argue that it's pretty clear at this point that continuing the capitalist mode of production is an existential threat to life on Earth, and so the choice ends up being between preserving whatever life we have now at the cost of an early death or looking for an alternative which allows us to continue to survive long term.

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rossimus t1_j10et2o wrote

>I think you're presenting a false dichotomy here. Be unequal and wealthy or equal and poor.

>In our extremely stratified and wasteful society, I think it is entirely reasonable to be equal without being poor.

Ah, but therein lies the rub; how does one achieve that? What if that really is the dichotomy? So far it always has been, and every effort to change it has been unsuccessful, or indeed just reinforced the nature of that dichotomy. Besides wishful thinking and theoretical ideas, there is nothing tangible to suggest that this isn't just the way things will always be in one form or another.

We can hope it won't be, and we can make progress to that end (as I said, we are far closer to that ideal today than ever before, regardless of what reddit memes suggest), but ultimately it may be the case that some amount of inequality and stratification is an inevitable part of a functional, organized society. Someone will always have to deal with cleaning up, disposing waste, digging ditches, and working agriculture, and those will always be tasks/roles that people would prefer not to have compared to other potential options, like those that involve sitting in soft chairs in air-conditioned offices. An organized productive society will need people to do both, and it's not clear how you could dole those roles out without someone getting something "better" than someone else. How would such a division of labor be equitably organized in our hypothetical utopia?

>I would argue that it's pretty clear at this point that continuing the capitalist mode of production is an existential threat to life on Earth, and so the choice ends up being between preserving whatever life we have now at the cost of an early death or looking for an alternative which allows us to continue to survive long term.

Moving on from the current capitalist model may indeed be inevitable, even desirable, but I think it's unreasonable to just assume that moving on from capitalism will automatically lead to a more equitable or environmentally balanced system. It was an upgrade to move from feudalistic serfdom to capitalism; it made things more equal and made life better. It follows then that whatever follows capitalism may be "better" in some or many ways, but just as capitalism has failed so many and done so much damage, in spite of being an objectively better, more efficient, more equitable system than feudalism, the next system may too fall short of utopia. Which isn't a reason not to move forward, but it's something to keep in mind as we do so.

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Meta_Digital t1_j10u3gp wrote

> Besides wishful thinking and theoretical ideas, there is nothing tangible to suggest that this isn't just the way things will always be in one form or another.

Other than historical societies, which offer a wealth of alternatives to capitalism or destitution. None of this is any more "wishful thinking" than trying to be good or truthful.

> How would such a division of labor be equitably organized in our hypothetical utopia?

The focus here isn't on some fantasy of everyone being perfectly equal and having exactly the same outcome. It's about control vs. autonomy. A self-governing society would be just that; a collection of autonomous agents collectively forming a community. The material conditions of life will create some inequality, but it wouldn't be the kind of inequality imposed through force that is normal under capitalism.

> Moving on from the current capitalist model may indeed be inevitable, even desirable, but I think it's unreasonable to just assume that moving on from capitalism will automatically lead to a more equitable or environmentally balanced system.

Certainly. We're currently experiencing the decline of capitalism and the rise in the potential for alternatives - which will either move in the direction of a more egalitarian society such as in socialism or an even more stratified economy such as in fascism. The Nazis began as an anti-capitalist movement before Hitler came to power (and got rid of the original anti-capitalists along with the rest), so yes, not all alternatives are desirable.

Yet, critiques like the anarchist critique are the alternative to reactionary politics that results in worsening conditions. By ignoring the anarchist (and other) critiques, we only increase the risk of descending into something worse.

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rossimus t1_j10wz8u wrote

>Other than historical societies, which offer a wealth of alternatives to capitalism or destitution. None of this is any more "wishful thinking" than trying to be good or truthful.

What are some examples of successful ones?

>The focus here isn't on some fantasy of everyone being perfectly equal and having exactly the same outcome. It's about control vs. autonomy. A self-governing society would be just that; a collection of autonomous agents collectively forming a community.

It looks like you're describing Communism, which we tried and doesn't work.

>We're currently experiencing the decline of capitalism and the rise in the potential for alternatives - which will either move in the direction of a more egalitarian society such as in socialism or an even more stratified economy such as in fascism.

But see both socialism and fascism (which isn't an economic model, but I understand what you're trying to say) are both extensions of capitalism, not new systems entirely. Marx himself saw socialism as a desirable end-state of capitalism, not an alternative. It wouldn't fundamentally change much in terms of societal stratification or environmental degradation, it would just mean worker shared ownership of capital, not the end of a system where capital is the key driving force of an economic system. Whatever follows capitalism would be something completely different. UBI is a closer approximation of what a post-capitalist society would look like (though it's also problematic).

>By ignoring the anarchist (and other) critiques, we only increase the risk of descending into something worse.

I think discussing it as an interesting thought experiment can be fun and informative, but it isn't terribly useful because it is neither practical nor desirable. It isn't accurate to say that we are doomed to back pedal as a direct result of not engaging with a hypothetical utopian fantasy.

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Meta_Digital t1_j10yyym wrote

> What are some examples of successful ones?

The untold thousands of years of primitive communism, which led to the domination of the human species over the planet, is often considered an example of humanity's success as a species. We could consider the end of these cultures, often eradicated by empires through conquest and colonization, as failure, but I think an argument could also be made that conquest and colonization were a response to the failure of empire.

I like to use science as a good example of a cooperative free exchange that betters humanity, and contributes one of the greatest successes of the human race. Science constantly rubs up against hierarchy, competition, and privatization, which have all inhibited its ability to better our lives.

> It looks like you're describing Communism, which we tried and doesn't work.

This is an overly simplistic understanding of what people mean by communism. You might be thinking specifically of the USSR, which was not structured as a communist (or even socialist) society, but an attempt to eventually evolve into one. It does demonstrate the difficulty in taking a feudal society and trying to make it communist in a capitalist world, but it does not prove that communism is impossible.

> But see both socialism and fascism (which isn't an economic model, but I understand what you're trying to say) are both extensions of capitalism, not new systems entirely.

Fascist regimes, thus far, have had capitalist economies integrated into their political system. Some have described fascism as the merging of capitalism with government.

Socialism is not capitalist as it doesn't have capital. The word "capitalism" was invented by early socialists to describe an economy system focused on capital rather than society. Socialism abolishes capital (private property, employers, employees, etc.) and thus is no more capitalist than feudalism or other alternative economies that don't contain capital.

> It isn't accurate to say that we are doomed to back pedal as a direct result of not engaging with a hypothetical utopian fantasy.

Anarchism isn't a hypothetical utopian fantasy. In fact, by definition, it is the opposite, as to presume that future generations would structure society exactly as historical thinkers imagined would be a form of inter-generational oppression. Anarchism is merely a critical framework, like feminism or environmentalism, directed at power dynamics in political structures.

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rossimus t1_j11u4ny wrote

>The untold thousands of years of primitive communism

Reddit anarchists have the strangest obsession with hunter gatherer societies as some sort of aspirational mod for society which I don't think I'll ever truly understand. Even taking into account the problem of having a small group of unspecialized individuals (no doctors, engineers, etc, as all members of the group have to work towards the survival of the group), even in its best case scenario it would only work for 20-50 people in a polity. It doesn't scale and so isn't really workable in the modern world where we need systems that account for millions of people at a time.

>I like to use science as a good example of a cooperative free exchange that betters humanity, and contributes one of the greatest successes of the human race

Science is a great example of something a tribal communist/anarchist society could not have. Science requires allowing for specialization, which means one less person working towards the survival of the group. It requires equipment and material that also calls for specialists somewhere to produce; otherwise what you can do with science is limited to stuff we have long since mastered.

>This is an overly simplistic understanding of what people mean by communism. You might be thinking specifically of the USSR, which was not structured as a communist (or even socialist) society, but an attempt to eventually evolve into one.

Communism is impossible, not because every society who's tried it failed, it's impossible because it fails to account for human nature. Communism can only work if everyone always buys into the shared collective efforts of the group. But there will always be people who seek to take advantage of situations to gain advantages for themselves over the group, which is exactly what happened every single time it's been tried. Power loves a vacuum, and communism by definition is a sustained power vacuum. As long as greed or ambition are human traits, communism (beyond a small tight knit group of 20-50) is impossible. History supports this.

>It does demonstrate the difficulty in taking a feudal society and trying to make it communist in a capitalist world, but it does not prove that communism is impossible.

If communism cannot exist unless every society everywhere is also communist, then it fails because it can't compete. Democracy and capitalism were able to be born and thrive in a mostly autocratic feudal world precisely because they were preferable and competitive models; such resilience is a prerequisite for a desirable and effective economic model. Because it is neither resilient nor particularly appealing, communism fails.

>Socialism is not capitalist as it doesn't have capital.

Methinks you should brush up on your Marx. Socialism is explicitly the end-state of capitalism; a model that Marx agreed with. His gripe was merely with who owned the capital, a small class of owners or the workers themselves. But a socialist world is still essentially a capitalist one.

>Socialism abolishes capital

Again, incorrect. It gives ownership of capital to those who work it rather than those who own it. It does not remove the factory or the value that factory creates. You're thinking of communism.

>Anarchism isn't a hypothetical utopian fantasy.

It is quite simply nothing more and nothing less than a hypothetical utopian fantasy. An interesting thought experiment perhaps, but certainly nothing to actually take seriously. Unlike environmentalism and feminism, which can and do exist.

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Meta_Digital t1_j126rw0 wrote

> It doesn't scale and so isn't really workable in the modern world where we need systems that account for millions of people at a time.

The thing about horizontal power structures is that, unlike hierarchical structures, they don't scale. Scaling happens when a system grows and it becomes more difficult to centrally plan and manage. Natural systems like the universe itself can be as small or large as they like for this reason. Same with animal populations. Of course such a manmade system wouldn't resemble what we have now, but that doesn't mean that such a thing can't exist. Hierarchies are the exception in nature, not the norm. To frame horizontal structures as unrealistic is to claim that reality is unrealistic.

> Science is a great example of something a tribal communist/anarchist society could not have. Science requires allowing for specialization, which means one less person working towards the survival of the group.

You mean like the specialization of Aristotle, who did philosophy, physics, metaphysics, and other subjects? Or do you mean the mathematician, philosopher, and scientist that was Isaac Newton? Perhaps you are referring to the specialization of Albert Einstein, who was a philosopher, a mathematician, and a scientist. Also a socialist.

The greatest contributors to the advancement of human knowledge rarely resemble the hyper-specialist we see under capitalism and more closely resemble the holistic thinkers of broadly talented people like Leonardo deVinci. Some degree of specialization is necessary, even in the primitive societies you're referring to, but too much specialization and there are no longer any advancements.

In fact, the factory method of industry was in part designed to keep workers so specialized that they'd never command a better wage or grow into potential competition. Like anything, specialization is not always beneficial at all levels of extremity.

> Communism is impossible, not because every society who's tried it failed, it's impossible because it fails to account for human nature. Communism can only work if everyone always buys into the shared collective efforts of the group. But there will always be people who seek to take advantage of situations to gain advantages for themselves over the group, which is exactly what happened every single time it's been tried.

This is based on the idea that because you observe capitalist behavior under capitalism that this means that capitalist behavior is "human nature". It's a common fallacy to assume that your era or culture represents the sum total of human capacity. In reality, communism represents one potential path among many that people can take. A great example of everyday communism is the household. Some households are feudal in structure where the income earner controls everything and dictates everything. More commonly, though, families in a household pool their resources and share for the benefit of the family. This is especially true in poor families that cannot afford the more authoritarian alternative. The fact that both of these kinds of households exist, though, demonstrates the amazing plasticity of so-called "human nature".

> It gives ownership of capital to those who work it rather than those who own it.

The workers use what they own and keep what they produce, the factory is no longer capital (someone else's private property) and the product is no longer capital (someone else's private property). Communism as defined by Marx takes this a step further and removes money and the state as well.

> An interesting thought experiment perhaps, but certainly nothing to actually take seriously. Unlike environmentalism and feminism, which can and do exist.

And criticism from the right of feminism is that it's a utopian fantasy about putting women in charge. Criticism from the same towards environmentalism is that it's a utopian fantasy that nature above humans. How is your critique different from this? Ultimately not. Like with the others, it's born from a misunderstanding of the subject.

All of these are frameworks which approach problems from a particular lens. Feminism from power relations between men and women. Environmentalism from power relations between humans and non-humans. Marxism from power relations between owners and workers. Anarchism from power relations between the government and the governed. None of these are proposed utopias.

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rossimus t1_j12bkqa wrote

>Hierarchies are the exception in nature, not the norm

Hierarchies exist all over nature. In all social animals, in food chains, etc.

>To frame horizontal structures as unrealistic is to claim that reality is unrealistic.

You've lost me, I don't even know what you're talking about anymore.

>You mean like the specialization of Aristotle, who did philosophy, physics, metaphysics, and other subjects? Or do you mean the mathematician, philosopher, and scientist that was Isaac Newton?

Both of those guys lived in advanced hierarchical societies where they could specialize in studying. They didn't have to split time between learning and hunting for food each day. They didn't have to make their own clothing, a specialist (tailor) made them. They didn't have to build their own home, specialists (carpenters and builders) did. Specialization and division of labor is something a society can only do if it organizes. Anarchism doesn't allow for this.

>This is based on the idea that because you observe capitalist behavior under capitalism that this means that capitalist behavior is "human nature"

Did greed and ambition not exist in humans before capitalism?

>And criticism from the right of feminism is that it's a utopian fantasy about putting women in charge. Criticism from the same towards environmentalism is that it's a utopian fantasy that nature above humans. How is your critique different from this?

Well, mainly that feminism and environmentalism exist and function. A successful modern anarchist society does not.

>All of these are frameworks which approach problems from a particular lens. Feminism from power relations between men and women. Environmentalism from power relations between humans and non-humans. Marxism from power relations between owners and workers. Anarchism from power relations between the government and the governed.

Indeed, I'm glad to see that we can agree that anarchism is purely a fun theoretical framework and little more. Good thought experiment, terrible real life idea.

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GameMusic t1_j0zzaij wrote

This is why I like the idea of some voluntary system of actual social contracts - some basic minimal law plus a legal framework you sign

Right now something similar would be moving to states with laws that reconcile with your values but that is not practical for most

But technology could make this viable

Imagine economic and governmental systems competing for members in the same geographic area but a baseline legal minimum and systems of tariff to prevent one system from bypassing the regulation of another

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SirMichaelDonovan t1_j0zptr8 wrote

>A person is smart, rational. People are dumb panicky animals.

Yeah, as I was rereading the article, I kept thinking "But how exactly could anyone organize an educational system without a hierarchical (i.e. dominant) structure of some kind? I trust a doctor to give me medical care or to cut me open on the basis of the existing power structures within our educational system (which help ensure certain standards are met).

Like I said, I don't think a purely anarchistic society is feasible (and certainly not at the scale of an entire nation); but there are idealistic elements to it that I think we absolutely should focus on (including to the point of restructuring our existing societies to be more equitable and less dominating).

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Containedmultitudes t1_j0zuyk7 wrote

It’s funny you should mention education as it’s one of Noam Chomsky’s go to examples of a fairly anarchic power structure. Departmental leadership is regularly cycled while curricula are developed through consensus. Anarchism does not have to mean the complete absence of hierarchical power structures.

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alienvalentine t1_j103wqa wrote

The mistake is that many people consider anarchism as inherently anti hierarchical, as opposed to anti coercive.

I listen to my doctor's advice because he knows more than me, creating a natural hierarchy, but I wouldn't allow him to make decisions without my consent, as that would be coercive.

Hierarchical relationships are completely compatible with anarchy, so long as they are voluntary to both enter and leave.

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OffDutyWiiFitTrainer t1_j104enz wrote

There's actually two kinds of hierarchies (as defined by Graeber). There's the authority based hierarchies that anarchists argue against, and 'self-resolving' hierarchies, like Parent-Child, Teacher-Student, or Doctor-Patient that are inevitable and unproblematic. The difference is that the role of the parent is to raise the child, once the child is an adult the parent need not raise them more. They have become equals, and the hierarchy is dissolved. The student becomes educated and outgrows the teacher, the patient becomes well. These self-resolving hierarchies are fundamentally different than those based on continued authority and domination.

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F33dR t1_j11ri37 wrote

*Uneducated people can't be trusted. Trained and educated people can. In high level cadres, trust is the foundation. Eg. Special forces.

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GameMusic t1_j0zxlpf wrote

This is the best thing I have seen posted on this sub

I would put some things with different words or argue for some compromise that keeps the good of civilization - medicine or technology or scientific method - but his general point is useful

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_CMDR_ t1_j10yten wrote

Anarchism has existed in real societies with real problems like war and diplomacy. The idea that it is an unattainable ideal is a lie. The Iroquois Confederacy springs to mind as the first example.

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Beginning-Panic188 t1_j109qkp wrote

You can find some ideas to what it will take to achieve the next level of philosophical evolution in the book

Homo Unus: Successor to Homo Sapiens

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