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ShalmaneserIII t1_j3h6m0w wrote

Reply to comment by klosnj11 in Anna Alexandrova, a philosopher of science at Cambridge, argues that a “science of happiness” is possible but requires a new approach. Measures such as “life satisfaction” or “positive emotions” can be studied rigorously. An underlying variable of “happiness” cannot. by Ma3Ke4Li3

And yet I guarantee you that chefs and condiment manufacturers alike do have ideas on how to make a good mustard.

We have one standard for measuring happiness- asking people if they're happy. It's essentially the same one we have for assessing pain. At that point, it's just a matter of figuring out what makes people, when able to freely say, say they're happy more than not.

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lpuckeri t1_j3h8jrj wrote

Really well put with the mustard analogy.

You don't need access to another person's qualia, to make reasonable judgements on happiness. Can you make perfect assessments of their happiness... No. But i don't think people can make perfect assessments of their own happiness even with their qualia.

Nobody is seeking perfect understanding of each persons subjective happiness, the same way a chef ain't seeking perfect understanding of every single persons subjective taste pallette. That doesnt mean you cant find patterns and techniques that tend to better peoples experience, and understanding the type of person it works for...And thats extremely valuable.

We can study the Qualia of others. Even if we cant experience others qualia exactly as they do, that does not mean we cannot make inductive assessments about it. This is the same mistake people make with the problem of induction... we cannot have perfect true knowledge using induction... but that does not mean we cannot possess knowledge and study things... it just means we can't have perfect knowledge, capital T truth. Yes, we cannot have perfect knowledge of someone's qualia of happiness... but thats meaningless since nothing in science claims or seeks that.

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ShalmaneserIII t1_j3hereu wrote

> But i don't think people can make perfect assessments of their own happiness even with their qualia.

That is, though, about as good as it's going to get.

Presumably few would say they're unhappy when they're somehow secretly happy. Some more might say they're happy out of a belief they're supposed to be happy. Despite that, the person describing their own qualia has to be better than anyone else at knowing whether that assessment is right or not.

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lpuckeri t1_j3hgxyq wrote

I agree with you 100% im basically adding on to refuting klosnj11

Thats about as good as it gets. Maybe you could argue machines measuring neurotransmitters can be better sometimes, but the point is that you dont need access directly to someone subjective qualia to make good, helpful, meaningful scientific assessments of happiness. Meaningful inductive assessments can be made through self reporting and other assessment methods.

Klosnj11 is conflating science seeking general and useful understandings of happiness to a completely objective understanding of happiness. Just like the mustard manufacturer can study taste to improve it generally, but doesn't claim to objectively perfect taste.

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ShalmaneserIII t1_j3hhj98 wrote

> Maybe you could argue machines measuring neurotransmitters can be better sometimes,

Possibly not, considering what we know of how neurotransmitter-increasing medications work. They don't cause an end to depression immediately after raising neurotransmitter levels. And, ironically, suicide risk goes up shortly after starting the meds.

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lpuckeri t1_j3hji5p wrote

No doubt. It was kinda besides the point as i said. I was just playing devils advocate as I'm sure there's at least some situation or person where measuring neurotransmitters is more helpful than self reporting. Also it can be helpful in addition to self reporting.

But i would generally agree self reporting is much more valuable.

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GETitOFFmeNOW t1_j3hkbn4 wrote

I'd be curious how happiness researchers would rate my happiness since I'm in daily, almost constant low level pain that zaps my energy and my ability to experience the world of active people. I also feel shitty, physically often due to POTS. I've been sick for at least 35 years.

But I've got a bunch of challenging artistic pursuits I can do from bed or my house. I'm in a happy marriage, I have several close friends and my mood is good. I'm also free of most of my family who have been unsupported and even hostile since I fell ill.

The main factor that may have nothing to do with the rest is a good mood. I'm very lucky. I'm not sure I have anything to do with that except for eliminating as much stress from my life as I can.

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bonafacio_rio_rojas t1_j3hvhdn wrote

I would think the person describing their own qualia would only be better than anyone else in describing it, but not making accurate assessments of their happiness (without taking time for introspection, at least).

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klosnj11 t1_j3hz5es wrote

But what does it really mean when they say they are happy? Is it the same as other people? The experience may be completely different, and we wouldnt know.

At least with pain, there are some near-instant biological responses we can measure for scale.

Chefs and coniment manufactures dont know how to make a "good mustard" as such a thing does not exist. They know how to make a mustard that appeals to the most customers. They know how to make a mustard that they feel compliments particular other flavors. They now how to make mustard that wont give you a stomach illness. But if there was a "good mustard" there wouldnt be so many varieties. People like different things. And how mustard tastes feom person to person is, in many ways, immeasurable and subjective.

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