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Snuffleton t1_j4gp4vh wrote

Reply to comment by 5slipsandagully in What it means to “know” a language by thenousman

I personally am under the impression that a lot of that has to do with social knowledge rather than actual knowledge about the language in question, though.

When I say something 'wrong' (f.ex. grammar-wise) in my native language, I do so with confidence. I know what I just said, and you gotta deal with that, full stop. And people will mostly just accept it, shrug their shoulders, and go:

'huh, guess that's one more way of saying it..? Sure, why not? He seems pretty stubborn about it, so I must be the stupid one'.

And when enough people start imitating the word, expression or manner in which you just said something, it will be considered 'in line' or within the range of the acceptable, respectively - others will think 'that guy definitely probably knew what he did there (maybe?), so he must be.. uhhh.. fluent'.

The same is not true for a second language, though. Going by my own experiences: as long as people don't see you and thereby aren't able to judge your nationality, ethnicity etc.; given that you speak their language well enough, they will simply assume you to come from a remote enough region that their assessment of themselves being in the wrong (or 'not in the know', rather) will somehow still hold true. When they do see you, however, they won't accept nothing they'd deem 'non-standard', because they will immediately assume that you just don't speak the language well enough.

I've found myself in this very situation several times, one of which even cost me a job interview, because the lady on the phone simply refused to believe me when I told her that I'm German and therefore didn't have to jump through some of their hoops regarding providing proof of language proficiency. That might sound like anecdotal evidence, but I'm fairly certain I am onto something with my observations so far

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hairam t1_j4hproe wrote

To your point, but different:

In my experience, I think it's a little less "huh, must be a thing where they're from!" and usually a little more "they know better, so it's a waste of time to correct" (unless the error is egregious or a popular annoyance like "alot" - see: reddit "grammar nazis"). This applies to the internet in particular, which is rife with mistyping and lazy typing for non-formal discussion, and in an age where autocorrect can actually make something you've said incorrect or nonsensical.

Eg: I'd assume "they won't accept nothing" is an editing error, and that you typed something out ("they'll accept nothing" or "they won't accept anything") but went back to edit your phrasing and forgot to correct agreement in the process. As quirks or little things like that increase, I'd assume you're not a native speaker whether or not I see your face.

Alternate example: I should have typed out that "Eg:" above as "E.g.," but people aren't going to take the time to correct that. They pooosssibly would if I had typed E.G.

Also in my experience, in person, native speakers will correct each other until they hear someone say that it's a peculiarity from their childhood or hometown. E.g. ^((maybe I'll try to write it correctly when I use it, now...)^) I have a friend who pronounces something oddly and uniquely. This friend has been corrected, but they have said it was always like that for them growing up. Now it has become accepted that "it's just how it is" for them with that particular pronunciation.

I think you're absolutely right about the impact of social knowledge and vernacular language on whether or not someone's considered native level. That speaks to the "personal knowledge" point in the linked article

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Snuffleton t1_j4kbvds wrote

I don't know what your native language is or where you are from, but I still want to add that I feel like the problem regarding the written language that you mentioned was something I didn't think of. I was talking about the spoken word specifically. So, I guess what you are saying is true, but - correct me if I'm mistaken with this assumption - together with your second point about native speakers correcting each other, I will still argue, that both of those phenomenons definitely happen more regularly when the language in question is English.

Maybe due to it being an internationalized language, so you never really know who you are talking to, unless you are seated square in front of them; or maybe due to English not being coherent regarding its own pronounciation, so people are more prone to point out what they consider to be 'faulty'..? Anyways, I have observed native English speakers doing that to each other quite a few times, while I can come up with exactly zero occurences of this in my own native language, which is German. This leads me to conclude that this happens with differing frequencies, depending on the language.

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hairam t1_j4rqmxm wrote

English is my native language and I'm from the US, for context!

Ah, I didn't know you were specifically talking about spoken language.

I would like to clarify, I agree with your initial point. If a native speaker makes a grammatical mistake (online through text, or offline/spoken), I've also experienced people just shrugging it off (that's kind of where "it's assumed they know better" came from in my first reply).

To elaborate on my comparative experience with pronunciation differences:
Pronunciation is more likely to be perceived as "faulty" if both speakers are from the same area, but pronounce something differently. E.g., I'd never correct accented English pronunciation from a native speaker (be they from England, New Zealand, or just another part of the US, etc), nor from a non native speaker (so long as the non-native speaker's pronunciation wasn't interfering with understanding, and they weren't trying to "improve" their pronunciation). My example comes from friends who have grown up in the same city but pronounce something differently.

Very interesting conclusion in your last sentence!

Also, I wanted to say - I used your own wording as an example of a small mistake. I hope that didn't come across as me speaking down to you! I was wondering at the time if doing that would come across as rude, but I wasn't sure it would, because it was such an understandable mistake to make... I've enjoyed your thoughts and this conversation, so I just wanted to make sure I didn't come across as having engaged impolitely with you.

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Snuffleton t1_j4tauvd wrote

No worries, I'm no part of the 'toxic assclown' faction on Reddit and always assume commenters to have the best in mind when they answer. It's always nice to come across someone who puts some thought in their words

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