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styblemartinov t1_j4in09e wrote

I think it’s problematic to draw a distinct line as there are so many different levels of proficiency in language, even between native speakers. When someone says “language” it includes so much, grammar, writing, spelling, prononciation, clarity, etc. One might be good at any number of these and bad at some too. Proficiency in ones native tongue is not set too. As an adult I’ve improved my writing and even my pronunciation. I mention that as I don’t think there is a great divide between a language learned as a child and as an adult. The difference is a child can learn it all for free. We don’t have that now and must put in the work. In most cases it’s not worth perfecting a second language, it’s an accent, it’s understandable. But native proficiency is still possible, an accent’s not ok for a spy, but I don’t have 9-5 to learn a language so I will have an accent.

If you were to draw a line in the sand for knowing languages I think it have to be based on how successfully one can communicate as otherwise it’s just too subjective. I’d say use the CEFR scale and consider c1/c2 “knowing the language”

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IAmTriscuit t1_j4keh32 wrote

You've hit the nail on the head here. This is more or less the exact criteria and understanding we have of "fluency" in sociolinguistics and it is disappointing that so many others in this thread are trying so hard to come up with some neat little box they can package "language" and "fluency" together in. It reeks of 60's understandings of language and psychology (thanks Chomsky).

I'm especially happy that you brought up the idea that even native speakers are still growing in their own language. People don't realize that despite being fluent, they still have huge gaping holes in their knowledge of "their own" language. Show any common person a "lawyer-ese" document and their eyes will glaze over.

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cbessette t1_j4ksdby wrote

>People don't realize that despite being fluent, they still have huge gaping holes in their knowledge of "their own" language.

Yeah, my native language is English, but I've used Spanish extensively for my work in a technical field for 20+ years and I know all kinds of technical words and concepts in Spanish that the average native Spanish speaker doesn't know.

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