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YourUziWeighsTwoTons t1_j6nwt8r wrote

"This Epicurean ideal of maximal pleasure/minimal pain has become thedefault ideal of the good life in our modern world. But the hedonistideal is not the only game in town, and in antiquity, it wasn’t even themain game."

Has this guy even _read_ any Epicurus?

Epicurus was NOT a pleasure maximizer. Ataraxia is NOT a state of constant, maximal pleasure. It is a state more akin to tranquility, to be achieved by moderating the appetites and practicing something not very different from Stoic virtue.

Epicurus would be absolutely horrified by what counts as "happiness" in modern popular culture. Unlimited consumerism with no restraint. Wasteful capitalism and unrbidled hedonistic sex was not his idea of a good time. He wanted to stay in his garden, cook simple foods, maintain intimate friendships, and practice the love of wisdom.

People get Epicurus wrong nearly 100% of the time.

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[deleted] t1_j6p8kg5 wrote

>Epicurus was NOT a pleasure maximizer. Ataraxia is NOT a state of constant, maximal pleasure. It is a state more akin to tranquility, to be achieved by moderating the appetites and practicing something not very different from Stoic virtue.

There are different interpretations of Epicurus on this point, and with good reason. Part of the issue is the paucity of surviving primary sources; we only have three letters which were (ostensibly) authored by Epicurus himself, and everything else is second-hand accounts of his philosophy, often from a hostile perspective, written centuries after Epicurus' own death. ETA: I forgot to mention, we also have one collection of maxims, knowns as The Principle Doctrines, which I think most agree is a genuinely Epicurean text, but it was probably produced by later disciples of the school. Additionally, there is another collection, known as The Vatican Sayings, however, the provenance of its points is less certain.

That being said, the interpretation which you have forwarded is what I like to refer to as the 'tranquilist' interpretation. Ironically, while it is a correction to the view the Epicurus was a mindless, debauched reveler, it is still inaccurate. A bit of an overcorrection, if you will.

Epicurus was a hedonist, in the truest sense of the term. His goal was to maximize pleasure, and to minimize pain. However, he thought that 'ataraxia' was itself the absolute maximization of pleasure. In contrast to the Stoics, virtue was only ever instrumental to Epicurus, never the goal.

"And this is why we say that pleasure is the starting point of living blessedly. For we recognize this as our first innate good, and this is our starting point for every choice and avoidance...." -Epicurus, Letter to Menoeceus

"No pleasure is a bad thing in itself. But the things which produce certain pleasures bring troubles many times greater than the pleasures." - Principle Doctrines, VIII

The key here is understanding that, for Epicurus, there was no neutral state between pleasure and pain. At any given moment, you could only experience pleasure or pain, but not both at the same time, and you must be experiencing one of them. Ataraxia was not an empty tranquility, it was a state without troubles of the mind or body, in which all desires had been fulfilled or vanquished, a sort of contentment. Think of how you feel after a really great meal, when you are just sitting there not wanting more of anything really, just enjoying your satisfaction. I think of it less as 'tranquility' and more like 'contentment'.

"The removal of all feeling of pain is the limit of the magnitude of pleasures. Wherever a pleasurable feeling is present, for as long as it is present, there is neither a feeling of pain nor a feeling of distress, nor both together." - Principle Doctrines, III

Furthermore, Epicurus' simplicity of living was not because he valued that mode as some sort of ideal, like the Cynics, but because of practical concerns. Maintaining a lavish lifestyle carries its own burdens, and it is not a sure-thing. One can always lose their wealth and station, and if you have grown too-accustomed to high-living, then you are at even greater risk; you risk losing not only your wealth, but also your joy. Likewise, if a simpler man happens into more extravagant fair, he is better situated to actually appreciate and enjoy it.

"And we believe that self-sufficiency is a great good, not in order that we might make do with few things under all circumstances, but so that if we do not have a lot we can make do with few, being genuinely convinced that those who least need extravagance enjoy it most...." - Epicurus, Letter to Menoeceus

You see, then, Epicurus was indeed a "pleasure maximizer," he just approached the issue more shrewdly than others. I hope you'll forgive my little rant, but Epicurus and Epicureanism are of special interest to me.

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SuspiciousRelation43 t1_j6owoo0 wrote

I myself had a strawmanned idea of what Epicurus was, then quickly realised that he is pretty much a moderate Stoic. Not completely ascetic, but still recognising that pleasure must be disciplined not only for objective well-being, but for the very ability to experience pleasure itself.

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YourUziWeighsTwoTons t1_j6p2odx wrote

Right. Epicurus makes a distinction between the different kinds of pleasures to be sought after that serves a similar function as the distinction the Stoics make between things which are in our power to control, and things that are outside of our control. Both schools of thought recognize that human beings become vulnerable to the experience of harm when we focus ourselves on matters that are not natural to us. And so, a Stoic and an Epicurean would both be quite disciplined in how they approached life.

They would definitely give very different accounts of what made their lives "good," but I bet unless you asked them to give you their reasons, you probably wouldn't be able to easily tell one apart from the other.

The Epicurean would likely be a little more of a recluse, whereas a Stoic might be more inclined to be "in the world" and interacting with the community at large, which she believed she had a duty to participate in. I don't think the Epicurean would feel the same way, and might be more likely to live "off the grid" as it were. The Stoic's "Off the Grid" would be her Inner Citadel.

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