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williamwchuang t1_j8dspx5 wrote

Reply to comment by JurassicCotyledon in A study in the US has found, compared to unvaccinated people, protection from the risk of dying from COVID during the six-month omicron wave for folks who had two doses of an mRNA vaccine was 42% for 40- to 59-year-olds; 27% for 60- to 79-year-olds; and 46% for people 80 and older. by Wagamaga

It doesn't appear to do so. The problem with comparing natural immunity is that the COVID infections murder the weakest victims so the culled populations will tend to be more resistant than vaccinated populations.

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JurassicCotyledon t1_j8dt2g2 wrote

But the overwhelming majority of people who have been infected, even those with multiple comorbidities, have fully recovered from their infections.

But in general you’re describing the longstanding concept of herd immunity.

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williamwchuang t1_j8dtsun wrote

My point is that herd immunity can be achieved using vaccinations at a far lower cost in money and in heartache. No matter how much you try to dismiss the downsides of COVID, the fact is that the downsides of the vaccination are even lower. From a cost-benefit analysis, there is no evidence that vaccination is bad public policy if you value human lives and the reduction in overall sickness.

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Beakersoverflowing t1_j8e48nf wrote

"Herd immunity (also called herd effect, community immunity, population immunity, or mass immunity) is a form of indirect protection that applies only to contagious diseases. It occurs when a sufficient percentage of a population has become immune to an infection, whether through previous infections or vaccination, thereby reducing the likelihood of infection for individuals who lack immunity." -Wikipedia

Show me a covid-19 vaccine that can make me immune to infection. If a product doesn't provide that level of protection it can never be used to achieve herd immunity.

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JurassicCotyledon t1_j8du22g wrote

You cannot achieve herd immunity for this type of respiratory virus, with the current iteration of vaccines. I wish this wasn’t the case.

I have at no point downplayed the seriousness of covid. I just pointed out that your previous statement was objectively incorrect.

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williamwchuang t1_j8duviw wrote

You didn't point out any facts that contradict my statement that COVID culls populations of the weakest persons, which is almost undeniable. You are simply arguing that COVID isn't killing enough people.

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JurassicCotyledon t1_j8dvhy5 wrote

You implied that since the weakest among us are “murdered” by covid, the remaining population is more resilient.

I pointed out that the majority of “weak” individuals do recover. I explained that you’re describing a process of natural herd immunity that has existed long before vaccines were invented.

You also incorrectly claimed that the current vaccines could induce herd immunity for this type of respiratory virus.

No one is on “team covid”. You’re just bothered by people having a less hyperbolic take on the issue.

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swesley49 t1_j8eanb0 wrote

You can have a population where infections happen with no vaccines and get herd immunity. You can use vaccines we have now, infections still happen, and get herd immunity from the natural immunity from infections except that fewer people will be severely affected and dead because we know the vaccines make death and serious illness less likely. It's wild that you think somehow herd immunity is impossible in a world with these vaccines, but it is inevitable in a world where these vaccines don't exist.

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JurassicCotyledon t1_j8ebvxn wrote

Even as spelled out in your comment, the vaccines do not induce herd immunity. They merely help to reduce death while herd immunity is being developed through natural infection.

Although you cannot qualify the efficacy of a vaccine simply by its ability to reduce severity of infection from the targeted pathogen. You need to look at all cause death over the long term.

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swesley49 t1_j8ef5v2 wrote

First, yes, AFAIK herd immunity may very well require true immunity. Although I'm also thinking about the possibility of reducing infections by enough that the spread is just too slow to get through our quarantine strategies. In that case, vaccines don't need to provide full immunity.

Second, these vaccines are not and will not ever cause more deaths than covid. I'm not sure what you mean by looking at all causes of death.

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JurassicCotyledon t1_j8egfqt wrote

Do you have any data to suggest that these vaccines effectively reduce the rates of transmission? If so, by what rate?

Secondly, are you suggesting that zero people who would fully recovered covid without vaccination, will suffer a death caused by an adverse event caused by these vaccines?

Do you know how many healthy people you need to vaccinate in order to statistically prevent a single covid death?

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