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shimmeringships t1_jckt4d4 wrote

Reply to comment by [deleted] in Study of 1.65M COVID Vaccine Doses Finds Rare "Myocarditis" Generally Mild—More Than Half of Patients Didn't Need to be Hospitalized by Voices4Vaccines

It’s not mild heart damage, it’s mild heart inflammation. In 11 out of 77 cases, it got better with no treatment. In 57 cases it got better with over the counter NSAIDS (e.g. Advil), and in 8 cases a second medication was added to the NSAIDS. Only 2 were admitted to the ICU, one for monitoring and 1 required surgery. Out of 1,650,000 doses administered. So that’s a rate of 46 cases of inflammation per dose, or 0.000046%.

Compare that to COVID, which has a rate of 450 cases per million among adolescent males age 12-19, which is the age most likely to have heart inflammation from the vaccine (<https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8328065/>). That’s not counting all the other risks, like damage to lungs and other organs, permanent loss of taste and/or smell, or or developing debilitating chronic fatigue syndrome.

Vaccines are never without risk. Neither are over the counter medications. Hell you can spontaneously develop a peanut allergy at any point in your life, but people don’t avoid peanuts because of that tiny risk. The point is that it is safer to get the vaccine than the illness.

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[deleted] t1_jcktg5k wrote

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Aeseld t1_jckuswb wrote

I seem to recall that inflammation was an immune response. Severe or prolonged inflammation can cause tissue damage, but generally, the tissue is left intact, undamaged. I could be wrong. Swelling and heat and possibly pain, but that's just the body telling you to leave it alone and not poke it while it does its work.

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[deleted] t1_jckyqjx wrote

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Aeseld t1_jcl01jj wrote

...I mean, a quick search? Shows that you're just wrong here. If you haven't searched to double check yourself, you should do so.

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[deleted] t1_jcl0k3b wrote

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Aeseld t1_jclfzkr wrote

Honestly, your comments keep disappearing now. So yeah, not going to get anywhere.

But... You're factually wrong here. And refusing to accept it for some reason. Myocarditis does not always lead to tissue damage. This is a fact. So yeah, mild inflammation and tissue damage are not the same thing. Unless you're going from tissue damage causing mild inflammation.

That's a cut or scrape, not myocarditis.

Myocarditis is the inflammation. If severe, it can cause tissue damage. Mild, does not generally cause tissue damage.

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Aeseld t1_jclb8vb wrote

Inflammation is a biological response of the immune system that can be triggered by a variety of factors, including pathogens, damaged cells and toxic compounds. These factors may induce acute and/or chronic inflammatory responses in the heart, pancreas, liver, kidney, lung, brain, intestinal tract and reproductive system, potentially leading to tissue damage or disease.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5805548/

Note the word, potentially. As in, not 100%.

Cytokines modulate the immune response to infection or inflammation and regulate inflammation itself via a complex network of interactions. However, excessive inflammatory cytokine production can lead to tissue damage, hemodynamic changes, organ failure, and ultimately death [59, 60].

Again, excessive inflammation 'can lead' to tissue damage. Excessive. Can lead.

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Aeseld t1_jclef77 wrote

Honestly, it feels like this statement has cause and effect reversed.

Tissue damage always has inflammation associated with it. The healing process. Tissue damage causes inflammation.

Inflammation does not always have tissue damage associated with it though. You've worded it a little poorly to make that point in the context of your other comments.

Plus, myocarditis does not always have tissue damage associated with it. Especially mild cases.

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Brofydog t1_jcl0itg wrote

I think clarification is needed. What do you mean by damage?

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[deleted] t1_jcl1efa wrote

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Brofydog t1_jcl3jbz wrote

So inflammation does not always lead to fibrosis(scarification). If that were the case, inflammation due to exercise or allergies would be more than problematic. And not all people who have myocarditis or pericarditis have scar tissue. Clinicians can detect swelling around the heart, or other abnormal biochemical markers (some of which are markers you would get from exercising particularly hard).

Inflammation is response by the body for some irritant, but it does not have to lead to cell death. I guess you could say that there is a disruption of homeostasis and repair in the localized environment, but most components of cellular division also go into repair of damage from normal cellular responses, so I don’t think it’s a very meaningful distinction.

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shimmeringships t1_jckupdc wrote

Ok, I’m not a doctor so I may indeed be misunderstanding what inflammation is. But everything I’ve read about myocarditis indicates that acute cases of mild inflammation resolve without permanent consequences for the heart. The risk of permanent damage to the heart from COVID is far higher than from a vaccine.

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