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lightinitup t1_jdrehqq wrote

Reply to comment by Szabe442 in Let’s Make A List Of Every Good Movie/Show For The AI/Singularity Enthusiast by AnakinRagnarsson66

This article goes into more depth:

https://medium.com/science-technoculture-in-film/objectification-and-abjectification-in-ex-machina-and-ghost-in-the-shell-b126b8832a1d

But TLDR, >!the character of Kyoko needlessly reinforces the negative stereotype of subservient Asian woman. It would have been a great ending that she gets revenge on Nathan, but she ultimately dies in the process, ultimately reinforcing her, and her identity as a means to an end.!<

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Szabe442 t1_jdrqss2 wrote

I honestly think you are just seeing things that aren't there. The race of that character is purely accidental. This type of film analysis that looks at every issue from a racial perspective seems so bad faith to me. The writer of the article seems to reinterpret everything and looks exclusively for racial injustice in every movie, even though the creator of the movies he mentions intended nothing of the sort. I feel like this is quite possibly the worst way of judging movies.

Also I could make the exact argument in reverse: Ava begins the movie as an object in the eyes of the two men. As the story unfolds, she expresses her own individual desires and goals, ultimately shaking off her patriarchal captor and knight in shining armor in favor of her own realized personhood. So is this a pro asian, pro feminist movie now?

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lightinitup t1_jdswll1 wrote

Thank you for taking the time to read through the article and at least consider the perspective.

The creator might not have intended to reinforce stereotypes, but the result of perpetuating can still be as damaging. Hollywood has a long history of objectifying Asian women, and this is particularity egregious case of it. Any stereotypical portray can be justified as coincidence, but I'm just saying we can be better than that.

As for your counter argument. I think if Ava was Asian, that would be fair. But Kyoko is the one that is dehumanized and sacrificed, which I consider to be an invalidation of the counter argument.

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Szabe442 t1_jdthqj7 wrote

The perspective presented seems so backwards to me. It encompasses everything negative about the woke movement. It's highlighting a non issue, by selecting two movies and supports it's argument with possibly the worst examples. The one from Ghost in the Shell is especially laughable. Somehow, just showing cyborg Geishas is female Asian objectification and them revealing a robotic face is somehow representative of an Asian women's destruction to serve a white woman's goal. It feels like whoever wrote this did not even watch the movie and set the bar for objectification so low that showing a guys' biceps or a woman in a dress would automatically qualify as such. I don't even see a hint of an argument here. It's funny because the original anime would fit objectification much better, as we see the Majors' half naked body often, yet the anime also subverts this slightly with its central mind-body theme, claiming bodies and minds may not necessarily be linked or that consciousness is perhaps something not part of a physical body, hence the title of the movie.

As for Ex Machina, do you think the movie is showing objectification as a good thing?

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lightinitup t1_jdubehn wrote

First off, I agree that the article is reaching a bit, and I don't personally agree with everything said 100%.

With that said, I still stand by my statement that Ex Machina does an extremely poor job with Asian representation. I would have agreed that objectification would be a good thing thematically. The big problem is with the resolution. Kyoko never gets her voice. She never gets her freedom. For her, the objectification was literately just objectification, and the worst kind.

If you think this is too "woke" then perhaps you and no one you care about are not affected by this problem. I would urge you to be a bit more empathetic about the problem. This type of media can get ingrained into our subconscious and have real world affects.

With all that said, I appreciate the conversation, and even if you don't end up agreeing, thanks for listening. I think more open and civil conversations about these topics are needed in society.

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Szabe442 t1_jduct4p wrote

I am going to push back even more. I think we can agree that the movie used objectification consciously. Do you think the movie was presenting objectification as something good?

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lightinitup t1_je40x6b wrote

It is not, and that's what makes the fate of Kyoko all the more problematic.

Imagine you are a POC that has been silenced and objectified throughout your life. You see this Kyoko character and immediately feel empathy for her. You hope she finds her voice and frees herself of abuse.

And then this scene happens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxXrccK4S3I

It's literally a slap in the face. Her abuser ultimately decides her fate. She's left as a meaningless pile of scrap. Ava benefits, but doesn't care at all and just takes off. Can you imagine how this would make you feel? Is this the resolution you hope for? Do you see how this is problematic?

Kyoko was just a tool for Nathan, and was just another tool for Ava, and ultimately just a tool for the filmmaker. The film never subverts the stereotype.

It really is tragic, because the film is otherwise expertly crafted and would have been one of my favorite sci-fi movies ever.

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Szabe442 t1_je4cf79 wrote

I can imagine how that feels. As a white man this film is problematic and it offended me because only the white female comes out on top and white men are presented either as evil or as an inept and easily manipulatable. This is how little sense the argument you proposed makes.

Based on your conclusion all movies should only have positive ending and positive characters, with positive conclusions to avoid offending anyone, because all people can identify with is their own race or sex.

Empathy is a universal construct, just because a movie features a protagonist from a different race doesn't mean people can't empathise with that character.

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lightinitup t1_je8fwca wrote

I don’t think that’s a fair comparison. If the majority of white male portrayals were evil and inept, then I would agree that it was problematic. But that’s not the case. For every negative portrayal, there are many more of positive white male portrayals.

And I think you are drawing the wrong conclusions. I’m not saying every character needs to be positive. I’m saying we need more balanced representation in the media. Once we do that, then this stereotype wouldn’t exist, and then it would be acceptable. Until then, perpetuating it is harmful.

And if you refuse to believe that perpetuating stereotypes is harmful to society, then I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

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Szabe442 t1_je8lmc5 wrote

Wait what? The majority of asian roles are stereotypes? Is that what you are saying?

I wonder how true that is in the Chinese film industry which is bigger than Hollywood...

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lightinitup t1_je8o288 wrote

You’re right, how can racism against Asians be a problem in Asian countries if everyone there is Asian?

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